Sabrina | Building a Childfree Community

Raised in Peru in a loving family, Sabrina felt affirmed early on in her desire to not have children. But, after moving to Portugal in her late 30s, she faced a lot of societal judgment about her decision to remain childfree. With support from her partner and inspiration from the stories she's heard on the Beyond Pronatalism podcast, Sabrina is now building a supportive childfree community in Porto.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

• Podcast episode: Nicole Louie | The Rich Lives of Women Without Kids

• TRANSCRIPT

  Sabrina (00:01):

  One time someone I know invited me over. There was a small gathering and we were talking about our childhoods and I was sharing about growing up in Lima. And I grew up very spoiled. I grew up very loved. People know that I love to celebrate my birthday and it's all up because of my parents. I was just sharing that part of my life and this person looked at me and she said, oh, so you had a really happy childhood. And I said, yeah, I did. And she said, oh no, I saw that you had some trauma growing up and that's why you didn't want to be a mother. So that really stayed with me and I was so sad and it really, really made me feel really bad because I never imagined that somebody would assume that about me just because I don't want to have kids.

  Nandita Bajaj (00:56):

  That was today's guest, Sabrina. Hi everyone, and thank you for joining me. My name is Nandita Bajaj and I'm the host of Beyond Pronatalism, Finding Fulfillment With or Without Kids, an interview series in which through intimate conversations with women and men from diverse backgrounds, I explore how they are courageously and creatively navigating pronatalism - the often unspoken pressures to have children, whether from family, friends, or the culture at large. In each episode, I dive into personal stories with people who are forging unconventional pathways to fulfillment, including redefining what family means to them, whether that means being childfree or childless, having biological kids, adopting or fostering children or animals, or creating close-knit communities of friends and loved ones. Hi Sabrina, and welcome to Beyond Pronatalism. I'm so excited to have you today.

  Sabrina (01:54):

  Thank you. Thank you for having me, Nandita. I'm so excited to be here today and I've been nervous my first time doing a podcast, but hopefully everything will be fine.

  Nandita Bajaj (02:04):

  Everything will be great as is your story. So Sabrina, could you start by introducing yourself to our listeners briefly?

  Sabrina (02:14):

  I'm Sabrina. I was born in Lima, Peru, and I moved to sunny Miami, Florida as a teenager and that's where I lived most of my life until I decided to move to Portugal seven years ago. So this is my home now and I'm currently 46 and I'm in the final stages of my PhD and I actually just turned in my thesis this week, so very excited about that.

  Nandita Bajaj (02:42):

  Congratulations, what an achievement.

  Sabrina (02:45):

  Thank you.

  Nandita Bajaj (02:45):

  And interesting background. So you grew up in Peru and then you moved to Miami and three very different places, so Peru, Miami, and now Portugal. I'd love to start by learning more about your upbringing in Peru and hear more about what kind of messages you were receiving around gendered expectations.

  Sabrina (03:08):

  Well, I would say maybe 90% of Peru, it's Catholic, so I think religion plays a big part in the country, but in my family I don't think I felt that strong. I mean, religion was always present, but I don't think my parents were ever those type of parents that would push that on me like, oh, you need to get married and have kids. They were more about my education, being independent. Having a career was very important for them. My parents have been married for 62 years. They're happily married. Even though my mom has always been a stay-at-home wife, she always wanted me to have an education. My dad always wanted me to have an education and they always kind of gave me that message like, yes, we want you to get married eventually, we want you to be happy, but in the event that doesn't work out, we want you to have something to fall back on and be able to fend for yourself and not have to rely on a man to provide for you.

  (04:09):

  I went to Catholic school, all women, and I think that really shaped a lot of who I am in a good way actually. I think that when women are in a safe space where we're all women, we are more able to excel in academics in a different way, becuase had I both. I was in Peru, I was in an all-women Catholic school, and then I moved to the States where I was in a mixed public school, and so I was able to notice the difference. I just felt much more empowered when I was surrounded by an all-women school. I felt like I was able to excel in school and not be targeted or felt like I should hide the things that I knew. Whereas when I moved to the states and I started going to a public school, I felt like a lot of times I wouldn't raise my hand as often. I would try to be a little bit more quiet. As a young girl, I guess I felt more intimidated for sure.

  Nandita Bajaj (05:05):

  Well, that's interesting because it's something I can relate to. I also attended an all-girls school until grade five, and then it was always co-ed after that, and I saw a stark difference in my confidence similar to yours for the same reasons. I was holding back more. There was a lot more tension around having boys and the expectations of who you're supposed to be as a female around other males. So that's very interesting. I of course support both systems, whatever works for people, but my personal experience resonates quite a bit with yours. And then what kind of differences did you notice when you moved to Miami?

  Sabrina (05:45):

  Well, Miami was definitely a shift. I struggled with it for a while. I felt like my parents were taking me from my place that I loved. I had a very, very happy childhood and I loved my life in Lima and starting somewhere new, starting from scratch, that world it was hard for me. And then moving to a co-ed environment, all English speaking, it was a lot to take as a kid. So yeah, it was a hard time, but obviously after a few years then Miami became my hope. I never felt like not wanting kids was a thing, honestly. I mean, I had conversations with the people that know me well, the friends that I grew up with. They always knew that I didn't want to be a mom, but I never got real weird questions about it. I never felt like it was even something that we talked about.

  (06:36):

  And then with relationships, it's never something that I hid or just the same way I guess women know that they do want to be mothers. It's just something that you know inside yourself. I think my parents, they knew and wouldn't push the idea on me. My sister does. I have two sisters and one of them, she loves being a mother. So I think for her it was always harder to come to terms with that. So every time I would date someone, she would always say, oh, maybe he's the one. Maybe he's the one you're going to end up having kids with. So I think she was quite disappointed when it didn't happen.

  Nandita Bajaj (07:10):

  And Sabrina, can you speak to how you knew that you didn't want to be a mother?

  Sabrina (07:16):

  Yeah. I tend to reflect a lot about life. I also tend to look at other people's lives. I use that as a mirror sometimes. Could I see myself doing that? And growing up and seeing friends of mine becoming single mothers, I always used to question myself and saying to myself, would I be okay with being a single mother? You know it was never a yes. And I think something that people don't talk enough about is the people that decide not to have kids I think have done a lot of self reflection. We thought about how would all our lives change? How do we feel like we're capable of handling and what things that we're not capable of handling? So I know myself well enough to know that I wouldn't be able to handle it. And so I think I was very honest with myself and that seems healthy to me.

  Nandita Bajaj (08:07):

  I agree. I think for a lot of people who end up deciding to not have kids, there's a lot of thinking that goes into it. And it's interesting to me that often they are the ones who get questioned about their choices more as if they just kind of ended up in that position. Then in your story, you said something shifted quite dramatically when you moved to Portugal in your late thirties. What happened? What was the shift?

  Sabrina (08:35):

  It was weird. It was really unexpected. I never saw that not wanting to have kids would later on in life become part of my identity somehow. And so when I moved to Portugal, yes, I experienced those questions of when and why and how come you are not, and I don't know if it has to do a lot with also being a very traditional conservative country with very much tied to religion. So one time someone I know invited me over. It was a small gathering and we were talking about childhoods and I was sharing about growing up in Lima and going on holiday with my parents. We used to go to the beach a lot, and because I'm the youngest and because there is a difference in age of 15 years between my sisters and I, my parents had me when my mom was 40. So back in the day, having a child in your forties was almost unheard of.

  (09:33):

  It was such a high risk pregnancy. So when I was born, my parents kind of saw me as a miracle, and so I grew up very spoiled. I grew up very loved. So every time my birthday would come around, my parents used to really, really celebrate. I used to invite everyone in my school. It was like 40 some odd kids. The parties were huge, and so people know that I love to celebrate my birthday and it's all up because of my parents. So I was just sharing that part of my life and this person looked at me and she said, oh, so you had a really happy childhood. And I said, yeah, I did. And she said, oh no, I thought that you had some trauma growing up and that's why you didn't want to be a mother. So that really stayed with me, and I remember I came home that day and I spoke to my partner and I was so sad, and it really, really made me feel really bad because I never imagined that somebody would assume that about me just because I don't want to have kids.

  Nandita Bajaj (10:31):

  That's pretty stark that that's the conclusion that people would draw. That's how normal it is considered for women to have children, that there would have to be something traumatic in their lives for them to consider not being mothers. And did your partner also not want children?

  Sabrina (10:49):

  That was one of the first things we spoke when we met and thank God we were both on the same page. And then I saw, okay, this is safe for us to keep moving forward and I'm glad we did. I mean, we've been together for eight years and he says the same thing. I mean, he says that for him it was just something that he never saw himself being a father, but obviously he doesn't get questioned by it as much as the other day. He did tell me, that conversation came up with a friend of his who's a father. They hadn't seen each other for years, and he told him that we don't have kids and we don't want kids. And his friend went on and on about saying how he couldn't understand why and he was gonna kind of regret it because kids are the best thing that's ever happened to him. And he made it seem like if he was to change his mind, then I would want kids - that he was the one preventing me from becoming a mother. And my boyfriend's trying to tell him like, no, no, she doesn't want kids either, but he just couldn't come to terms with it. It was too much. He couldn't wrap his head around the fact that both of us didn't want to.

  Nandita Bajaj (11:53):

  The assumption that all women have this kind of deep yearning for children, I think it's still kind of present within traditional circles, either the men or some trauma would prevent you from doing it. And in terms of the culture in Portugal, do you see a lot of people who are either happily single or happily childfree, or are you still kind of seen as the odd one out?

  Sabrina (12:18):

  Like I told you before, growing up I never imagined that this will become part of my identity, now in my forties. But if you go online and you go on Instagram and you see all these influencers now talking about being childfree and how many people actually resonate with the message and then all the people who actually go on their platform to criticize their life choices, which I don't understand why. I mean it doesn't affect you personally. It doesn't negate the fact that you are a father or a mother, and culturally, I think we need to respect people's choices. It's just as valid to want to be a mother or father as not wanting to be one. I don't think one diminishes the other. There's not a competition here. There's no right or wrong. I listened to your podcast. I got in contact with the writer of the book, Others Like Me.

  Nandita Bajaj (13:09):

  Nicole Louie.

  Sabrina (13:10):

  Yes, and I had a very small book club. I told her about it and all of us kind of like in our forties, and I told her that a lot of us coincidentally are also childfree, and these are people that I am meeting now. So because of that and because her and I decided to have this book club talking about her book, I've met other women who also live in Porto and who are childfree. And so I decided to create a smaller meetup called Childfree Women in Porto, and I'm actually going to have our first coffee time next week, so we're going to meet.

  Nandita Bajaj (13:47):

  That is so exciting, and I love that an episode from this podcast helped to establish that and helped you find other people. That is really, really inspiring. I know other people who have been guests on the podcast have asked to connect with other guests after hearing their stories. And I'm sure that your initiative to start this meetup will also be an inspiration for others who are listening to consider doing the same. And I appreciated what you said that because of these cultural assumptions you've had to make being childfree a part of your identity, which you never thought to be that big of a deal before, and now it's like a label that you have to wear. What does it look like for you and your partner to be childfree? What does your life look like today? What are the kinds of ways in which you celebrate that choice and live your life?

  Sabrina (14:48):

  I think you asked me earlier if I had had anyone in my family growing up that I used to look up to. That person didn't come into my life until later when I was already an adult, and it's my uncle, him and my aunt. They lived here in Italy for a while, and they were also childfree, and I used to look at their lives and they were such a source of inspiration. They used to travel a lot, and my aunt was very involved in many, many, many different things. Unfortunately, she passed away, but seeing them growing up and seeing the dynamics of their relationship was really something that I used to look up to just because it was kind of a way for me to have a reference that life can be fulfilling if you don't have kids. And I know a lot of people in our family used to ask, why didn't they have kids and stuff like that, but I was like, man, but they are thriving.

  (15:45):

  They have this amazing life, and there's nothing that I think they were lacking. They had such great love for each other and respect for each other. So yeah. Well, my partner and I did want to share this part because well, most of our adult life we had a pet. So my boyfriend had his dog of 19 years, so he was with him for a long time and he passed away during COVID, but then I had my dog. He moved with me from Miami, and I had him for 16 years. So that's also a long time. And so unfortunately my dog passed away beginning of this year. I think it's been an adjustment for the both of us to now in this part of our lives. We're both in our forties to navigate this life without having a pet. I'm still grieving. There's times where it's harder for me, and I don't think people talk enough about grieving the loss of a pet. And so yeah, it's all very new to us. We spend a lot more time out. It's just a new chapter I guess.

  Nandita Bajaj (16:52):

  I'm so glad that you brought up the grief part - that we don't allow ourselves to grieve properly, or culture doesn't allow us to grieve openly when the animals in our family pass away. Because even today, it's still considered less than a human family member.

  Sabrina (17:13):

  Absolutely. And I talk about it openly with people I know because it has been hard. It's still hard, even the furniture, the spaces where you spend most of the time with them. And so we had to sell our couch. We bought a new couch. So it's just little things. No one really talks about how much they are a part of you and they're so special, and their absence is definitely felt. And I know a lot of people try to be compassionate and they say, oh, you can just get a new one, and that's not the way things work either. But now we're in our forties. I see things differently - the amount of time that I have, the flexibility that I have. So a lot of my friends have kids, but I also gravitate towards the friends that don't have kids, and I think it's natural to want to hang out with people that are going through the same things as you.

  (18:06):

  I think it happens to people that are parents too. They'd rather hang out with other parents. They also understand their struggles. And so I like having both. The one thing that I do hope is that I am that friend for my friends who are mothers that can come to me and talk about things other than being a mother. I love being that for my friends. I love to talk to them about them and not just the fact that they are mothers. And I feel like my friends are also a bit more open and honest with me about motherhood, which sometimes I feel like they can't be that honest with other mothers. So I feel like we need to create a safe space for people just to talk about the struggle of actually being a parent, because there are times where it is difficult, and I think a lot of women unfortunately feel like they don't have that safe space.

  (18:58):

  I do feel like that I was privileged enough to be that generation where I do have a choice to think for myself and decide for myself what I wanted. And I hope that this generation, the women that are in their thirties and forties and are choosing not to have children, I hope that they're becoming the role models to someone that other young women can look up to. At least I hope that what I have done has influenced somehow like my nieces and my cousins and the people in my life that are younger than me and that can see that there are choices. You can choose how you want to live your life and that it's okay.

  Nandita Bajaj (19:40):

  Absolutely. I do think in order to create a truly inclusive society, we have to model for people that we're not trying to create silos of childfree people over there and parents over there. There should really be no animosity between the two groups. Pronatalism doesn't need to capture all of our lives, and the fact that you had choice available to you throughout and that you could exercise what you wanted to do and that you've been allowed for the most part, to express that freely is a wonderful thing, and we want to see more of that in the world.

  Sabrina (20:17):

  Absolutely.

  Nandita Bajaj (20:18):

  I appreciate you and your story so much, Sabrina. Thank you so much for joining me today.

  Sabrina (20:25):

  No, thank you, Nandita. I mean, I've been following you for a long time. I was like that fan you know who was writing to you, telling you how much your podcast has meant to me, and how many people that I've listened in your podcast have inspired me as well, because it's good to hear other people that are going through the same things that have chosen the same lifestyle and that you can connect with. So thank you so much for having me.

  Nandita Bajaj (20:48):

  Thank you. I really appreciate that. That's all for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. Check out the show notes to see how you can get in touch with me. Whether you'd like to share feedback about the show or a particular episode, or whether you'd like to join me on the show to share your own story, I'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much again for joining me today, as we collectively discover and celebrate the many different pathways to fulfillment beyond pronatalism. Beyond Pronatalism is brought to you by Population Balance, the only nonprofit organization advancing ecological and reproductive justice by confronting pronatalism. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Nandita Bajaj, with the support of my production team, Josh Wild and Alan Ware.

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