Sneha | Standing up to Patriarchy

Raised in a conservative Indian family, Sneha knew from an early age that they didn't want to have a biological child. As a teen Sneha discovered their queer identity, and in their twenties Sneha made the difficult but liberating decision to leave their parents’ house and hometown. Sneha has rejected the patriarchal expectations of procreation and marriage and embraced their own path - filled with strong friendships, family, and companion animals.

• TRANSCRIPT

  Sneha (00:00):

  I never felt connected to that messaging for as long as I remember. As a child, we would play with dolls and the girl would always be at home cooking and taking care of the child, and there would be this invisible, non-existent husband who would go out and do all the grunt work and get the money at home. So this has consistently been sort of ingrained in our brains that this is the natural way of life. And one of the ways that system consistently works the way it does is because they want to keep us busy in doing the very cis head, patriarchal familial system that has been built within. Because then you don't create rebels, then you don't create a revolution, then you are not really able to stand up because then you're afraid to lose something. You're scared of it.

  Nandita Bajaj (00:58):

  That was today's guest Sneha. Hi everyone, and thank you for joining me. My name is Nandita Bajaj and I'm the host of Beyond Pronatalism, Finding Fulfillment With or Without Kids, an interview series in which through intimate conversations with women and men from diverse backgrounds, I explore how they are courageously and creatively navigating pronatalism - the often unspoken pressures to have children, whether from family, friends, or the culture at large. In each episode, I dive into personal stories with people who are forging unconventional pathways to fulfillment, including redefining what family means to them, whether that means being childfree or childless, having biological kids, adopting or fostering children or animals, or creating close-knit communities of friends and loved ones. Hi Sneha, welcome to Beyond Pronatalism. So wonderful to have you.

  Sneha (01:54):

  Hi Nandita. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

  Nandita Bajaj (01:57):

  I'm so glad that you decided to share your story with me. I'm fascinated by your background partly because it is so similar to my own, having also grown up in India with some of the very similar values and traditions that you grew up with. But there are also so many differences. And to start, could you give us all a brief background about yourself?

  Sneha (02:23):

  So my name is Sneha. I'm born and brought up in Mumbai, but I've been living in Pune for the last eight years. I am 32 years old and I have been working as a marketing and communications lead with a consultancy. But I come from a background of working with nonprofit organizations in animal rights and animal welfare for about eight years. I have been childfree for I think as long as I can remember. And yeah, I think for me this space has been such a great opportunity to share what a person who is an Asian and who comes from India, who comes from a very conservative family and how they navigate in a pronatalist world as a childfree person. And yeah, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.

  Nandita Bajaj (03:12):

  Yes, of course. And let's begin with how pronatalism showed up in your life as you were growing up.

  Sneha (03:22):

  So even though I've been born and brought up in Mumbai, which is New York, you would say, of India, that's what people call it. And even within this big city, we of course have these pockets of areas where different cultures thrive. And some of them can be very progressive, some of them can be very conservative. For me, my parents, although both were Hindu, one of them was Sindhi and another one was Maharashtran. So my dad's Maharashtran, mom's Hindi, and even though they are from upper caste background, they are Hindus. They had to do their fair share of fighting because even not being from Maharashtran community or even not being from a Sindhi community of either of the spouses, they faced a lot of resistance within their families and their own families were also conservative. And they fought together to be with each other. They had 12 years of relationship before getting married.

  (04:18):

  And you can imagine this is like 1980s. So a lot of resistance from socially, family, in every space that they existed. And through all of that, they finally fought and they got married. And I came into the picture after a year, and for me, pronatalism has been a mirror to the world because since childhood I have seen pronatalism creeping in places where I would not even expect at all, even familial conversations that are happening or festivals that are happening. And even unfortunately during the time of funerals. So it has been experience to also look at it from an outsider because I never felt connected to that messaging for as long as I remember. As a child, we would play with dolls and we would play what we would call as ghar-ghar, like house-house. And the girl would always be at home cooking and taking care of the child, and there would be this invisible non-existent husband who would go out and do all the grunt work and get the money at home.

  (05:25):

  So this has consistently been sort of ingrained in our brains that this is the natural way of life. This is how you're supposed to live it, you go to school, you get your degree, you get a job, get married, have kids. This has been consistently in the fine print and out loud as a billboard. That has been the messaging of our community, our religion, just in general, our country as well. And for me, it has not been as difficult, I would say as it has been for a lot of other childfree people who may have had to move mountains to really stand their guard and confront their parents that they don't want to have a kid. What was more difficult for me was to convince that I don't want to get married. That was something that really shook my parents because even before understanding what childafree lifestyle has been or what it means, what it looks like, I always had more inclination towards adopting a kid.

  (06:22):

  So when I thought about kids, I thought about, yeah, adoption makes sense. There are so many kids out there, they need a home. So for me, it was a no brainer. And as I was growing up and going through the puberty and understanding about sexual autonomy and a lot of sexual orientation knowledge and how while I was exploring my own sexuality, it became very clear that everything is set in stone in a cis, hetero-patriarchy society. And that even an inch here and there, if you move, it opens up a lot of resistance from people you might not even know otherwise. And that sort of journey, it was a lot slower. So in the beginning it was just like conversations with relatives and they would always talk, oh, you'll grow up. How many kids do we want to have? And I'm a child. And I think within Indian society, one of the very funny things that I would like to call out is that we shame people so much for having romantic relationships, for having intimacy, but we are so obsessed over the fact that we want to have kids.

  (07:27):

  I think that does not go very well hand in hand, and that leads to so much of real life suffering because of the repressed feelings, because of no space to really express yourselves, find yourselves, find your sexuality, find your identity, and that repression builds up. So for me, that has been a journey and I am really fortunate and privileged that my parents, while a little resistant, they were still okay with it and they made their peace with it that my daughter's not going to get married, not going to have kids, and I have my dogs and they are part of my family and they're my children. And I know a lot of people might feel offended with that, but that is the fact. And they are also their grandchildren, my parents. So whenever I get a call, it's mandatory that I sort of put on a video call and I show them that yes, they're here, they're fine, they're doing well. So for me, family looks very different and that's sort of how I have been able to navigate my journey.

  Nandita Bajaj (08:29):

  Well, thank you so much. That was a very rich story and I really appreciate the distinction you're creating. Especially in India, and this was my experience too, there is so much shaming that goes on around finding your own partner and what we call in India 'love marriages'. And yet if you look at the shows and soap operas and Bollywood movies, they're filled with stories of love and love marriage and romance. And to that point, you said your parents actually fought to be with one another. So your parents sounds like they married as a result of love rather than arrangement. Can you tell me a bit more about what that was like?

  Sneha (09:17):

  So I have heard all the stories while growing up was that they had a very secret relationship for a long time. And so what they would do is my dad was a big fan of reading books. And what would happen was that they would exchange books. And within those books there were letters, so they would communicate through letters. And I have seen those letters and it's a living proof of how they have survived within that sort of atmosphere, even though it was not a radical relationship in itself. But for them it was still a fight. And they fought for a good couple of years and they both came from a very different economic background. So my mom was relatively from a well-to-do economic background, but my dad wasn't. And that was also another sort of barrier that they had to face. So my dad had to sort of go and prove his worth to my grandfather that he is capable of taking care of her. And finally, with blessing of my maternal grandparents and my paternal grandparents, they were able to get married. And in '91 they got married, '92 I came in.

  Nandita Bajaj (10:24):

  So while they fought for their marriage, in some ways they were radical, in other ways they were mainstream when it came to pronatalist messages, et cetera. So you grew up kind of hearing a lot of those messages that you're going to have kids, when are you going to have them, and probably an expectation that you will get married. But you took it a step further and you said you weren't going to get married and not going to have children. So around when did you wake up to some of these other possibilities?

  Sneha (10:58):

  Yeah, so I think it was around the time when internet came into place, and that was definitely a game changer for a lot of us. We understood a lot of things that we didn't before because when I was growing up and when I hit puberty, it was sort of a minefield because you wouldn't know what to look for. There's so much curiosity, you want to learn about things. And so for me, I always felt that I didn't fit into the whole idea of only liking one gender or one sex. And for me, attraction was just about human being, about personalities and not really about what gender or what sex they have. And of course, I kept those feelings to myself because one, I was afraid of it because I didn't understand where it was coming from. Two, because there was nobody around me who maybe I felt safe enough that I could talk to.

  (11:48):

  There was no grownups of course, and my friends were my age. Of course, they wouldn't also very comfortable. And that point of time, we were also surveilling a lot when we were playing. So if we say anything unusual, it would go back to parents and then parents would come back to our houses and all of those social fightings would occur. So we had to be very careful what we said. So really when it happened was when I understood what lesbian, gay, trans person means, what it means to be bisexual, what it means to be pansexual and all of those things. I started learning about it and it just resonated with me that, yeah, it's okay. Why is it so bad to love the same gender or love the same sex? But of course I didn't see that because I never really had that space. Only when I moved out from my parents' home in 2017 and when I came to Pune is where I really had the space to embrace myself, embrace my identity, and then I came out as queer and non-binary in 2020.

  (12:50):

  And that was sort of where I felt that I could find a community that I could be a part of, but I'm not officially out of the closet in front of my parents or any family members. And I don't think that is required. For some people it might be important, but for me it's not because I know how set in stone my parents are. They can come as far as me not being married, me not having kids, but might not be comfortable with me having maybe same sex partner or same gendered partner. And it's also something that I have built myself into that I don't need anybody else's validation. If I do end up having a partner of same sex, of same gender, then so be it. Yeah. So I think that's where for me, the idea that emerged that if you don't want to have children, so why is it that you want to get married?

  (13:38):

  Because the notion of having an institutional marriage in this country is to procreate. And because you can't have children, I mean, you can have children, but you're not allowed to have children without getting married. So then all the social shaming and really outcasting that comes into place of having an illegitimate child at that point. So really for me, that became a space of is even institutional marriage really about equality or really about partnership or companionship or kinship? Is it about that? And when I start questioning that is when I figured out that this is not something that is set in stone for me. And even though I've had romantic relationships, I've made it clear that this is not something that I'm looking for because I understand a lot of people are childfree, but they do want to get married. They do want to settle down, they do want to have companionship. And nothing against that, that's a very, very personal choice, how do you want to celebrate your relationship? But for me, it wasn't just that. So yeah.

  Nandita Bajaj (14:37):

  Such an interesting background there. And so you knew first that you didn't want to have children before you knew that you didn't want to marry. And then you made that connection that the purpose of marriage, at least within that Indian culture, is really to procreate. So if you're not even interested in procreating, why even buy into that traditional institution? And I also appreciated what you said about pushing your parents just enough outside of their comfort zone, which is the fact that you're neither marrying nor having children, but then not going so far into sharing your own personal identity with them or your sexual preferences. Did you do that mainly to protect them from discomfort and feelings of disappointment, et cetera?

  Sneha (15:27):

  Yeah, it's mainly from that because I think to a large extent my mom would still be comfortable with it, I guess, because I've joked around about it around her when it's just her and me and she's just laughed off and she's not really shown any real signs of resistance or really questioned me onto that. But for me, definitely it's about, I think what they would feel is about the societal judgment and shaming. I think at this point, I don't want to put them through that. I'm not even dating, so I didn't even see the need to put them through that. Maybe if I have a partner and they want me to really talk about it, and because it's important for partners also to feel seen and valued and appreciated when they're in a relationship. Some of them, they do want to extend that relationship with their parents. So I do understand that. But for me, I think for now it's just out of a question because disappointment, yes, a lot of conversations, maybe a lot of fighting. I think I'm saving myself a lot of trouble and them a lot of trouble as well.

  Nandita Bajaj (16:30):

  Yeah, I think it's both strategic and kind to protect yourself and them from unnecessary conflict. And I often get this question, even when I'm teaching about this, is how to stand up against some of these oppressive belief systems within your own family. And my suggestion is often what you are actually doing, which is take your family members or your parents as far as you need to take them in order to still maintain that relationship if that relationship is important to you, but not unnecessarily any further, especially if you know that's going to create unneeded conflict. Because I think it also just shows a level of empathy for them of just where they are at in their life stages and what they've grown up with. Because as we know, there are so many families within our own culture that will disown their own child in order to protect themselves from societal shame. And the nice balance that you've struck is to me very beautiful and inspiring.

  Sneha (17:43):

  Yeah, thank you. And I think one of the reasons that a lot of Indians, a lot of kids feel compelled to tell their parents about it is because we have been conditioned that in every decision of your life, parents must be involved. For a lot of people, it goes beyond parents. It really involves your immediate relative members and your cousins and so many more people. And I think that's also one of the things that as millennials, we are challenging, a lot of us who have that sort of privilege and resources and background where we don't think it's necessary to involve parents in every decision that you make and especially the decisions that's only going to impact your life, that's very personal, that's very deep to you. It just doesn't make sense that to put somebody else on the position of taking charge of my life, which is going to affect me on everyday basis and for the rest of my life.

  (18:37):

  So it's very difficult for a lot of young Indians to separate themselves from that because they also separate themselves from community because if something does go wrong, they might not have a way to come back and they might not be accepted again because then again, consequences, right? So I think that is where we want to really start shifting our focus on, where we can really say that it's okay if my parents don't agree on everything that I do. Maybe they'll understand down the line. Maybe if they see our relationship together, maybe that will happen. But unfortunately for a lot of people that does not happen. People face backlash. There's still honor killing that happens in India. So it's important to really take all of these things into consideration when you want to decide if you want to involve them in your life decisions or not.

  Nandita Bajaj (19:26):

  Yeah, you said it all so well, and it seems like you're managing to strike that balance very thoughtfully. So I'm also very interested in hearing how you arrived at the decision to be childfree. How did you know, when did you know, and what was it like to accept it yourself?

  Sneha (19:48):

  Yeah, I think for me, being childfree itself came into the picture when I was in my high school. I had a conversation with the person that I was dating at that point of time, and it was very clear for both of us that even though we wouldn't mind getting married, we wouldn't want to have kids. One was for the lifestyle, just for the freedom to move around, do whatever you want, go wherever you want, pick whatever kind of job you want. If you want to move overseas or move to a different state or a city, all these decisions impact a child and we have to make those decisions taking in regard of their fulfillment and their growth. And so for me, I didn't feel that urge. I wasn't feeling very compelled to go through motherhood as well. I've watched a lot of videos to educate myself, and I think it scarred me a little bit, and I think it's one of the very invasive things that a body can go through.

  (20:44):

  And even though there was a time when was younger, I felt like maybe I would want to adopt a kid, that changed because I started realizing about my own mental health struggles, the things that I was struggling with my life, with my career, and it just didn't feel right at that point of time to even think about having a kid. And then years passed by with that thought, and it never changed because for me it was always about what do I have to do in my life and all of those existential crises. And in that it just didn't feel right to bring in another kid that I may not be capable of taking care. So I need to take care of myself before I can take care of anybody else. And I learned also that with having adopting a dog, and you do face those issues from time to time when you're struggling with mental health, and you have to really push yourself to be there for them and take care of them.

  (21:41):

  And I'm not saying at all that having a kid is exactly equal to having a dog or having any other companion animal, but you get a gist of it because you do surround your life around them. You want to ensure their wellbeing, their safety, well-fed, they're taken care of, they're happy, and all of those things. And you do those things with kids as well. It's just a hundred times more because then you have to think about the development, the schooling, the cognitive development, any other struggles that they might be facing, so many other societal pressures that they might be going through. So all of them just thinking about it overwhelmed me, because my childhood was hell and my school life was hell. So for me to think of having my kid go through all of that was really not a bearable thought because I went through a lot of bullying.

  (22:28):

  And so I did not like school at all. I was not doing very well in the school as well. I might have had a ADHD when I was really young. I was not diagnosed of course until I was 30. So I got to know that I might have had those tendencies and those symptoms just that at that point of time, we did not have the resources, we did not have the knowledge. My parents were not that well educated professionally to have that sort of access to mental health issues at all. So a lot of things that I went through was very difficult, and I just knew that this could be a possibility for my kid as well. And it's not like that my parents didn't pay attention. It's just that for me as a child, I became very anxious and sort of started suppressing things because my dad was a very strict one.

  (23:10):

  So to tell him anything, I would know that there would be repercussions. But with my mom, I would tell certain things and not all of those things. So I was a difficult child. I know that I put my parents through a lot, and I'm really glad that they didn't decide to have another child, and it was just me that they had to take care of because another me would've been probably really bad for their mental health as well. So that's sort of what all of those things drove me to thinking that this is not the kind of life I would want for my child, and I don't even want to give a percent of possibility that it could happen. I could try my best and I could still fail miserably. And that just fell into place. And then from there on, I just decided that I'm not going to date anybody if they want to have a kid, because that just doesn't make sense to start something that, you know, have very different views and ideologies. So that's how sort of I came into the conclusion.

  Nandita Bajaj (24:06):

  Yeah, it's amazing how many dots you were able to connect from your own experiences and then not wanting to repeat them possibly for a potential child. And also you're saying that there was enough space available for you to have that thought even appear in your mind that not having a child is a possibility.

  Sneha (24:29):

  And I think it starts from parents, because if my parents didn't give me that freedom while I was a kid, because for a girl to be in a very Hindu-centric family, the rules are very different than the boys. So you can't go out. We want to know who you meet, who you talk to. But I was lucky to have at least one of the parent who was always very understanding and supportive, and she would always shield me from any consequences. And she would also help me set boundaries. So I would get those messages for sure, but I would appreciate them because that would also help me be more careful outside. And one of the reasons that happened was also because I was a rebel. So a lot of things I questioned even the rituals that would happen in our place. So I started rebelling in small ways that I could.

  (25:21):

  And I think maybe that prepared them eventually for facing this kind of decision, because when I decided in 2017 to move out, I think that was even more difficult for my parents to deal with than me not having a kid or not getting married because they didn't want me to go out and they didn't want me to pursue anything that I want. They wanted me to do it within Mumbai, but not outside the city, maybe because of the insecurity of having an only child on top of that, having a female child and all of those things. But I think that was really required for me. I think that really changed the trajectory of my life. If that wouldn't have happened, I would've probably been stuck in a cycle of just resentment. And it's really important to have that boundary with your parents as well. So I could only really put boundary with them after I moved out.

  (26:10):

  And even that was a struggle for me because I really had to fight to move out. So that decision really put me into making me confident that, okay, if I did this, now I have to stick to my decision and I have to be responsible towards it. So over the period of time, they feel all right with my decision, and today they do. So I'm really glad that that's sort of conclusion we reached to, that I am also happy that I am here and they're also happy that I'm doing well. And yeah, that's sort of at the end. That's the messages. Because I remember in one of the fights, my dad had threatened me to disown me for something very petty, I guess. And I said, well, if you disown me, then you never really loved to me, that sort of thing, because you can't love with conditions is what I feel, at least with your kid. It becomes very difficult for a child then. It's not the responsibility or the burden of the child to convince parents that it should be other way around. I think if that just comes in from parents, it's a game changer for children to understand that this is a safe space.

  Nandita Bajaj (27:14):

  Yeah, very well captured again, and I resonate with some of that same experience. It sounds like you were 25 when you moved out. It was the same for me, and it was a really big step. Maybe it was the hardest step, more than marrying outside of my culture or not having children, because it was the first indication for them that I was shifting away from the expectations that they had of me. And it was definitely, it was one of the more difficult experiences that our whole family went through. But then slowly over time, it resolved itself in small ways, and it was, as you were describing, we were coming back towards each other with greater understanding. They were reaching more towards my level of actions, and then I was reaching also toward their experiences and values. So yeah, this is all really great. And as we come to the end of our conversation, I'd love to hear more about what were some of the responses that you received from them and others around you about this decision and what continue to be the responses today. And also, what does it mean to lead a life of purpose and self-confidence for you?

  Sneha (28:38):

  That's such a great question because I think a lot of times, even when we do make decisions for ourself, it can shake up our confidence within that decision if our surroundings are not that supportive or downright really alienating and really dismissive. So for me, it was a bittersweet experience because some of my friends, my longest friends are childfree and some of my other close friends have kids. So it was more about having a conversation with them because in the beginning, of course, very basic questions, it'd be like, oh, you're not going to experience motherhood. Who's going to take care of you when you're old? So I would then answer those questions with the question, So do you think I should have kids because I need somebody who would be taking care of me, and who gives that guarantee if they will take care of me?

  (29:27):

  Or by unfortunate situation, circumstances, if they pass away before me. There's so much uncertainty. So I think over the period of time, while they may have gone their own ways to have a kid to get married, and there was over the period of time a consensus that we reached that this is your life, your choice. So we support you, we respect you. And that sort of conversation that has happened with some of my friends, I have also lost some of my friends because of the lifestyle choices that I make, and also about a lot of other things that I believe in that could be put as an radical feminist. I really don't care about patriarchy and I really just want to smash it down and all of those things. So it doesn't sit well with a lot of my friends who I think it's more internalized than anything else.

  (30:15):

  But for me, the journey has been thankfully not that bad. And even when I was dating somebody, he was also with the same thought that he doesn't want to have kid, he doesn't want to get married. In fact, that relationship went to a point where he got a vasectomy as well. And I'm glad that I've had that consistent support regardless of the partner that I have or not. And even the friends that I have today, they're very supportive of my choices. But I think at this point of time, when you're thinking about having a child, it's really important to think about not just how you're going to have a child or where you're going to have a child, but what world you're bringing the child in. And that's really important to think about now more than ever, because a lot of things are going downhill for our country, for us.

  (31:03):

  And one of the ways that system consistently works the way it does is because they want to keep us busy in doing these things, doing the very cis-head, patriarchal, familial system that has been built within to really follow that and not care about it. Because then you don't create rebels, then you don't create a revolution, then you are not really able to stand up because then you're afraid to lose something. You're scared of it, which is, again, very understandable, and it comes from a very human emotion perspective, but it's definitely worth thinking of. So I think for me, that has been the journey that I'm glad that whatever decisions that I made, I had my parents back some way or the other, and I had a great supportive group of friends. Yes.

  Nandita Bajaj (31:51):

  That's really beautifully put, everything that you said about the systems that want to keep us busy so that we don't stand up to them and why the choices that you've made in your life are personally aligned with your values, but they're also a sign of political resistance. Sneha, thank you so much for joining me today. This was a really wonderful conversation, and I really appreciate everything that you are doing in your part of the world and creating so much difference there for other people and for animals.

  Sneha (32:24):

  Yeah, thank you so much. Likewise. Feelings are really mutual, and I'm really glad for everything that you're doing, and it's a hundred percent solidarity and support for you and the whole team at Population Balance. So thank you for your time.

  Nandita Bajaj (32:37):

  Thank you so much.

  (32:38):

  That's all for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. What did you think of this episode? Do you have your own story you'd like to share? Check out the show notes to see how you can get in touch with me. Whether you'd like to share feedback about the show or a particular episode, or whether you'd like to join me on the show to share your own story, I'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much again for joining me today as we collectively discover and celebrate the many different pathways to fulfillment beyond pronatalism. Beyond Pronatalism is brought to you by Population Balance, the only nonprofit organization advancing ecological and reproductive justice by confronting pronatalism. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Nandita Bajaj, with the support of my production team, Josh Wild and Alan Ware.

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