Lucy | Thriving Solo

Growing up Lucy assumed she’d follow the traditional path of marriage and motherhood but, as she grew older, she found herself increasingly questioning the dominant cultural script. Despite a brief period of intense broodiness, she realized that the single, childfree life gave her the freedom, peace, and purpose that she craved.  Today, through her Thrive Solo podcast and book, Lucy empowers others to reject pronatalist expectations and embrace happiness on their own terms. 

• TRANSCRIPT

  Lucy (00:00):

  For the first time in my life in lockdown, I had time to breathe and think about what I wanted from my life. And I had this overwhelming feeling that I wanted to take back control of my life. And it's started dawning on me that actually I really, really liked the version of me who I found when I was single. I really liked her and I really liked her kind of drive and her ambition and her dreams.

  Nandita Bajaj (00:44):

  That was today's guest, Lucy. Hi everyone, and thank you for joining me. My name is Nandita Bajaj and I'm the host of Beyond Pronatalism, Finding Fulfillment With or Without Kids, an interview series in which through intimate conversations with women and men from diverse backgrounds, I explore how they are courageously and creatively navigating pronatalism - the often unspoken pressures to have children, whether from family, friends, or the culture at large. In each episode, I dive into personal stories with people who are forging unconventional pathways to fulfillment, including redefining what family means to them, whether that means being childfree or childless, having biological kids, adopting or fostering children or animals, or creating close-knit communities of friends and loved ones. Hello and welcome to Beyond Pronatalism, Lucy. It is just fabulous to have you on.

  Lucy (01:41):

  I'm thrilled to be talking to you too. Thank you so, so much for having me, Nandita. It's great to see you again from when you were on my podcast when it was still called Spinsterhood Reimagined two years ago.

  Nandita Bajaj (01:52):

  I know, it seems like forever ago. Yeah, I loved being on the podcast and I really love the work that you're doing in challenging not one, but two really major pronatalist myths, which is being single and being childfree. And Lucy, you have this incredible podcast called Thrive Solo, and you just have a new book out by the same name, Thrive Solo: Embracing the Freedom, Joy, and Opportunity of a Single Childfree Life. And it's a beautiful read and I'm excited about learning and where you started and what events and epiphanies brought you to where you are today, which is that you thriving solo. So though we are going to talk a lot about the myths around these two aspects of womanhood, I'd love to actually start first by having you introduce yourself to our listeners. If you can tell us your age, where you grew up, where you live, and what you do now.

  Lucy (02:59):

  Thanks so much for the introduction, Nandita. As I say, it's so fabulous to be here. So yeah, so my name is Lucy Meggeson. I'm 49 and a half years old. I normally live in London. I have a flat in London where I've lived for many years, but I'm currently living down in Dorset, which is where I grew up as well, because to cut a very long story short, when I actually got the deal to write this book and I was doing my podcast and running my membership and everything else, I realized that I needed to temporarily rent my flat out and move down to Dorset for a year or so. So that's where I currently am and that's where I grew up. And so in terms of what I do, I am a podcaster. Am I actually going to say I am an author? I'm an author, and I also run my own membership that I created two years ago, which is also called Thrive Solo and is for single childfree women. So yeah, that's what I do.

  Nandita Bajaj (03:54):

  Amazing. It is such an honor to have you on this podcast to return the favor and you indeed are a new author. So congratulations.

  Lucy (04:04):

  Thank you.

  Nandita Bajaj (04:05):

  So before we get into how you arrived at the life that you are living today, let's go back to your childhood and I'd love to hear what your upbringing was like and what kind of messages you were receiving around being a young girl and then growing up to be a woman and what the expectations were.

  Lucy (04:28):

  Yeah, so going back, so as I say, I grew up in Dorset. For anyone who doesn't know Dorset is on the southwest coast of England. And I grew up just outside a town called Dorchester. I grew up in the middle of the countryside and I grew up with two parents who were married, my mom and my dad. And I am the middle child, the difficult middle child between an older sister and a younger brother. So in terms of the narratives and the messaging when I was a kid, I think what is interesting to point out, or I suppose probably a lot of people say this, but there was never a question that I wouldn't get married and have kids. And it's not that my mom and dad in any way shoved it down my throat or anyone for that matter, apart from the societal messaging that shoves it down all of our throats.

  (05:18):

  There wasn't any particular pressure or expectation. It wasn't something that my parents necessarily talked about very much. I didn't sit around and discuss my kind of white wedding with my mom and what I call my babies or anything like that. However, like most young women, I just assumed that that is what I would do because everyone around me, including my own parents, that's what everyone was doing. And in fact, it's funny because actually thinking back to my growing up years and my school years, I went to a prep school up until the age of 12 or 13, and the head mistress and the deputy head mistress were both single childless women. Do you know, it's so funny, I haven't thought about this for ages, but what is really interesting is that I always thought there was something kind of weird about that.

  Nandita Bajaj (06:10):

  Yes.

  Lucy (06:11):

  And there they were my head mistress up until the age of 13 and the deputy head, and they were these two obviously authoritative figures in my life. And I remember even now feeling like it was weird in some way that neither of them were married and neither of them had kids. In fact, I think there were rumors that perhaps they were together and that was a whole thing. So it is just very interesting to look back now, but as I grew up and went to university and then into the world of work and I moved to London and did all of the things that we all do again, I always just expected that I would one day get married and have babies. Now, the marriage and the babies thing are sort of two separate things because whilst I was very much into boys and I had many, many relationships from very young in my teens right the way up until my sort of early forties.

  (07:08):

  So in terms of relationships, I was always, I wanted to be in a relationship. But actually when it came to kids, although I assumed I would have them, I never felt any sort of particular motivation or any drive and certainly no broodiness when I was young. And in fact, I do remember friends of mine when I was at school in my sort of mid later teens. I remember hearing my friends talking about babies and wanting babies and just being a bit like, I don't really relate to this and I'm sure we'll get into this, but I didn't actually experience any broodiness until I hit 40. Up until that point, it escaped me. But all the while it was something that the messaging that was in my life, not necessarily outright, but just sort of by osmosis because that's what everyone around me was doing. And then of course all my friends started getting married and then they started having babies. And here we are and I'm single and I don't have any kids at all. So apart from my cat.

  Nandita Bajaj (08:11):

  Yes. Your story is so similar to the stories of many, many people that I've had on the podcast, and I'm sure that you've had on your podcast where even if we haven't had direct pressure from within our families, there is just something in the air that tells us that this is just what you do. And the fact that you were looking at your headmistresses and the fact that they didn't have children and that they weren't married as weird. I also think that's interesting because that's a norm that we've picked up from society to place that value on people who don't fit that norm, even if we're attracted to that norm ourselves. But we're not even allowed to dip in to the possibility that, well, that could be pathway that I could take. Rather, it's very quickly tamed to believe that there is something wrong with that choice.

  Lucy (09:13):

  Completely. Because of course, I mean one of the narratives that I write about in the book and I talk about on my podcast is that there is this crazy belief that having children particularly and getting married equates to success. And that just further serves to make any woman who finds herself unmarried and childless makes her feel like a failure. And this is something that I talk about over and over again is that this is one of the main narratives that we have to get rid of that single childless women are failures who haven't made it. Because one of the things that I always talk about or talked about quite a lot is that success is something that we get to define for ourselves. To me, the way that I think about success is how good do I feel most of the time? How happy do I feel? What percentage of my life do I feel good? And what percentage of my life do I feel bad? That to me is success. Success also to me means feeling comfortable and happy in my own skin and knowing who the hell I am. But of course, most of the world doesn't see it like that. And success to the vast majority of people is partly coupling up and procreating.

  Nandita Bajaj (10:28):

  Yes, totally. And I'd love to hear what your experiences were when you were starting to question this narrative and really at what point did that happen for you? You said not until you were 40, did you really start asking the question about children, but what was life like leading up to that age and when did these questions start occurring for you?

  Lucy (10:54):

  It's funny because when I look back to my thirties, I was in several long-ish term relationships of two, three years with guys who I really, really deeply cared about, lovely, lovely guys who I still care for very much. And all of those relationships I ended up walking away from because something just didn't feel quite right. In fact, at least two of them I moved in with. So we were living together, and then I just kind of was like, oh my gosh, this isn't working for me. And I ended up leaving. So I think at that point, I hadn't named it yet, but obviously there was something in me that felt somehow restricted by a relationship or sort of, I think partly what it was. And again, it wasn't something I was consciously aware of at the time, but I think what was happening was that when I was in a relationship, I would kind of abandon my own dreams and where I was going in my life because suddenly everything would become about the relationship.

  (12:01):

  So it was almost like I had these two sides of me, one part of me that was all in on this relationship and that kind of became my life. But this other part of me, this sort of subconscious part of me that was going, oh, this doesn't feel right. This isn't enough. There's more for you. And somehow for me being in a relationship meant that I would stop following the things that I wanted for my life. But again, back in my thirties, I never consciously thought that I was challenging any narrative at that time. What then happened, to cut a long story short, is that I got into my final relationship when I was 39. Not a good relationship, thankfully, we were only together for two years, and then there followed a longer period of being single than I'd ever had in my life. So now I'm in my early forties, and ironically, it was around the same time that I had really started to feel very, very, very broody.

  (12:58):

  However, what's important to note about the broodiness thing, just going off on a slight tangent, is that despite the fact that I felt broody, I didn't feel drawn to being a mother enough to ever make that happen by myself. And also what I should also point out is the fact that those relationships that I just referred to with those lovely two specifically lovely guys who we could easily have gone on to have kids together, my desire to have kids just wasn't on the same level as so many of my friends because I wasn't willing to settle, quote settle for a relationship that didn't feel right for me, even though I knew that I was really getting on in my thirties and if I wanted to have a baby, I kind of needed to do it, but I still left and then come back to post my last relationship.

  (13:49):

  And I was sort of on the one hand dealing with these feelings of grief from the broodiness that I was feeling around having kids. But there was also a much stronger part of me actually that was starting to realize that maybe my path in this life is not to be a mother. And what subsequently happened was that I worked for BBC Radio 2 for years, and then I left that job randomly to become a detective for about five minutes, and I hated it with a passion. So I left. And then basically we were then in lockdown. It was just before lockdown. And for the first time in my life in lockdown, I had time to breathe and think about what I wanted from my life. And it wasn't just about the sort of relationship or the baby or whatever. It was also about what I wanted my life to look like.

  (14:46):

  And I had this overwhelming feeling that I'd had for many, many years that I wanted to take back control of my life. I wanted agency over my life and I wanted to live life on my own terms. And during those couple of years, so sort of just before lockdown and then into lockdown, it started dawning on me that actually I really, really liked the version of me who I found when I was single. I really liked her and I really liked her kind of drive and her ambition and her dreams. And my sort of epiphany moment happened in July of 2021, and I've written about this in the book where it was a beautiful sunny afternoon. I sat outside of my flat in London and I was reading through some messages in a WhatsApp group with some very old friends of mine, and they were all talking about they were kind of all stuck in homeschooling hell.

  (15:39):

  We were back in another lockdown. And I just had this moment of thinking, oh my God, I don't feel any envy whatsoever. What I actually felt was a sense of smugness that I was both childfree and single. And that was my epiphany moment of going, oh my God, my life's great. I love being single. I love not having kids. I love who I am when I'm single and I don't have kids, so why does the world think that I must be a weirdo or a freak or a loser or a failure or I haven't quite made it? I literally got up from this bench that I was sat outside my flat on, came back into my flat, sat down at my laptop and started typing. And that was the beginning of this journey, which has now seen me write a book, start a podcast, start a membership.

  Nandita Bajaj (16:29):

  Yeah, I really love that you covered the full journey of how you got to there. And I want to pull apart a few different threads here that I want to follow. Well, first of all, I loved what you said that you actually had time to think, which was you were kind of forced into that situation because there was nothing else you could do during the lockdown. And that time to think, just being away from it all, the messaging, actually allowed something to germinate inside of you that hadn't really been allowed to sprout even because the messaging is so strong and internalized messaging as well, what we believe is the right thing to do. So at one point you said you really started to experience this sense of broodiness. I'd love to understand, well, what kind of experiences were you having? What feelings were you having and thoughts? What does it look like to feel broody. It's not something I can relate to, and I'd like to understand it so that listeners can identify it if and when it happens for them, locate it and question it and see if it's worth responding to, if it's something that we should be sitting with and processing.

  Lucy (17:51):

  Well, this is one thing I'll say first off, is that this is the crazy thing that despite the fact that I was having feelings of broodiness, I still concluded that children weren't right for my life and I was happy that I hadn't ended up having them. So what the broodiness felt like was, it was a very physical, sort of visceral feeling in the pit of my stomach, in my gut that literally came out of nowhere. And what it looked like was I would find myself standing in a supermarket queue in an aisle, and there would be a baby or a toddler in the line in front of me with its mum, and I would find myself just fixating on this baby or this toddler because anything above baby or toddler I wasn't really interested in. It was just the very little ones that were kind of tugging at something in me.

  (18:45):

  And I would describe it as a real yearning, just a yearning of like, oh my God, I need to pick that baby up. I need to kiss that baby. Oh my God, actually really quite intense feelings. But what I will say is that there was this kind of duality going on in me, as I mentioned just now, that on the one hand I was having these feelings of broodiness, but on the other hand, I was able to think with my head, if you like, or my heart actually, and think, Lucy, what do you want from your life? And I kind of knew that actually it wasn't a child, and whilst maybe I needed it to sort of in this sort of way that you might need to scratch an itch, it was like, oh, I just want to be pregnant and have a baby and go through that and then just have a baby and a toddler and then I'm good, rather than actually, do I want to be doing somebody's maths homework?

  (19:39):

  No, I don't. Do I want to be taking somebody to football every Saturday? No, I don't. Do I want to have my creativity interrupted every five minutes? No, I really don't. So it was this real duality in me. And to be honest with you, when it came to the feelings, I have done a lot of, let's call it inner work over the last five or so years. And one thing that I have really worked on so much is my mindset and the way that I think about life and myself and the world and the way that I view things. And I've become so much better at choosing where I place my attention and where I place my focus. And this has saved me in terms of this because rather than walking out of that supermarket and bursting into tears and then going home and scrolling through reels of babies on Instagram, I would make a choice to shift my attention onto something else.

  (20:39):

  That isn't to say I never scrolled through Instagram and looked at loads of baby reels and felt really bad for myself, but mainly it was a choice to think about something else. And actually this is one thing that I will say, and I've talked about this before on the podcast, I think when it comes to if there's anyone listening who has ended up not having kids but wanted them initially, what I would say is I think there is a tendency for some women to make it their story that I couldn't have kids, this is who I am. I couldn't have kids. This defines me and that kind of victim mode that I've most certainly been, I used to be a total victim five, 10 years ago, absolutely - not when it came to babies and kids - but just generally. And I think we have to realize when we are playing that same record over and over and over and over again, and it's not serving us because ultimately we do get to make a choice as to whether we define ourselves by that thing that we perhaps wanted and couldn't have, or whether we choose not to define ourselves and move on with our life.

  (21:46):

  And that is what I've done. I've sort of managed to let go of those feelings and just swing my attention over here and focus on what I do have and where I am going. And you know what the truth is that I don't think my broodiness was anywhere near as bad as other women have it. I've heard, I know there are women out there who all they want is a baby. That was never me. I was always far more concerned about what I was going to do with my life in terms of my hopes and my dreams that never involved a baby. So I think I was lucky in that my broodiness wasn't perhaps on the same level as some other women have it, but I do also think that I made a choice that I was going to just not focus on it. And also I realized very, very quickly, and the longer I was single and the more I was kind of enjoying the version of myself that I was growing into as a single woman, the more I was thinking, oh my God, babies and children just do not fit into this story of my life at all.

  (22:52):

  And so now I'm so grateful that I didn't get pregnant and have a baby. And of course now one of the other reasons I'm very thankful for is the fricking planet and overpopulation because I'm glad that I'm one of the women who isn't having children because let's face it, the planet is in serious trouble as you know, only too well.

  Nandita Bajaj (23:16):

  Right. Yes. This is such a powerful description of the whole experience that you went through, and I'm so glad that you spoke about your experience of broodiness in your body and in your mind. I think it's so important to platform those experiences as well because there are so many of us who, say like me, who bought into the notion that I have to have children, that's an inevitability. Like you, growing up, I didn't really have any desire for children. But unlike you, when you did experience it, even if was briefly, I cannot relate at all to the pining for a child feeling. I can relate so much to the nurturing for other beings, including our rescue animals. It just means that like everything else in life, our ability to nurture is on a spectrum, ability to do any number of things. And in the absence of pronatalism, we will have the kind of time that you had to actually just sit with it, to question it, to allow it to be there, to not suppress it, and then to basically work your way out of it.

  Lucy (24:36):

  Exactly. It's so true, and this is one of the many problems of pronatalism, is that so many women end up having children without even thinking about it because it's just what you do. Hence, we end up with far too many children who are neglected, who are abused because people are not sitting down and asking themselves whether actually bringing a human into the world and being responsible for that human is right for them and their lives. But of course, so many people just go into it blind without thinking. And the crazy thing is having a baby should be the biggest decision that anyone ever makes because you are literally bringing another human into this world. And let's face it, bringing a human being right now into this planet is a risky little game and isn't necessarily going to have a very good ending for said baby.

  (25:33):

  And this is one thing that I do talk about on the podcast is that we just don't sit down and actually think about it. And God knows, like you say, if we stripped away pronatalism, if it wasn't a thing and if there was no stigma around women who didn't have kids, it would be so interesting to see how many fewer women actually went ahead and had them. And the one thing I will say is from having done a podcast around single childfree women for three and a half years, I have had many, many, many conversations with women who have said, I never wanted a baby. I never ever ever wanted a baby. I always knew I didn't want a baby. People said I'd change my mind. I had a fabulous woman on my podcast called Julie Kellogg. Julie had ended up having her fallopian tubes removed because she didn't want to have a baby that much.

  (26:22):

  And initially she went to a female gynecologist and the doctor said to her, basically, I'm not doing this because you're going to change your mind and one day you're going to meet a guy who you're going to want to have a baby with. And it then took a much older male gynecologist who went, yeah, of course I'll remove your fallopian tubes. If you've made the decision, you're an adult woman, of course, let's do it. And she did it. And of course she's never regretted it because she knew she didn't want kids. So it is a myth that every woman is put on this planet to have kids. You and I know that that is just simply not the case. And I'm sure a lot of people listening, and I know for a fact having had a podcast where I've had this conversation ad nauseam with multiple women who categorically say, I knew I never wanted kids.

  (27:07):

  I've never wanted them. I never will want them, the end. I don't have a maternal bone in my body. And just also to pick up off the back of that is that like you obviously do too, I am very maternal. I have a cat called Johnny who I am literally obsessed with and who rules my life. Here's my priority. I love and adore this cat and, boy oh boy, is he getting all of my maternal instincts. You've got to feel bad for him, really. I mean, I'm surprised he hasn't run away yet because he's just like, mom, you're crowding me, woman, leave me alone. But no, I throw so much love into this little cat who I adore so much. And as you do with your animals, like you just said, you have nurturing instinct, as do I. And I think one of the other myths around women that don't have kids is that we are not maternal.

  (27:54):

  And yes, as I've just said, there are some women who state I do not have a maternal bone in my body, but there are also plenty of women who didn't want kids, haven't had kids, ended up not having kids, whatever, however that looks, who absolutely have that need to nurture. And since getting my cat three years ago, I've experienced how incredibly nurturing I am. I mean, I already knew because I have nephews and a niece who I absolutely adore, but really having a cat who is my responsibility has made me realize I'm incredibly maternal, but I'm still so grateful I didn't have an actual human child, although my cat is so high maintenance that frankly I might as well have.

  Nandita Bajaj (28:35):

  And speaking of getting to the other side and having this realization that you have everything you need, I'd actually love to spend a little time talking about the very thing that you specialize in, which is thriving solo. And of course, your podcast and your book have that same name, Thrive Solo. So let's spend the rest of the time as we wrap up talking about what it's been like for you to be thriving solo.

  Lucy (29:06):

  One thing I talk about in the book, and I talk about it on the podcast a lot, is you ask what my life looks like now. And it's peaceful is what it is. And I think we really underestimate how incredible it is and how lucky we are if we are living a peaceful life, the sort of mental peace and the emotional peace and the sort of physical peace and quiet that comes, particularly when you are single and you don't have kids. And of course, I'm both of those things. So my life now, some would look at my life and think, my God, her life looks boring. But to me, I love that. I love that my life looks boring. My days are incredibly busy because I work incredibly hard. I'm running my own business. I basically work seven days a week, so I work a lot, but somehow when it's your own thing and it feels like a calling and a purpose, it doesn't necessarily feel like work all the time, but aside from that, it looks very much like hanging out with my love of my life cat Johnny, and going for beautiful walks in nature by the sea in the woods.

  (30:11):

  It looks like having slow mornings to myself because I don't have kids and I don't have anyone asking anything of me. And because I do run my own business, I can shape my days how I want. So I am religious about my morning routine. I spend literally a few hours in the morning. I believe that the way you start your day is everything. It sets the tone for the rest of your day. It sets the tone for the week, for the month, for the year, for life. And I get up at five o'clock in the morning. I meditate most days. I like to do a workout. I like to go for a walk. I have a really good, nutritious protein-filled breakfast. And of course, I see my family, I see my friends. There is no doubt about it. I spend a lot of time by myself, but I personally love my own company.

  (30:59):

  I love spending time by myself. And crucially, just because I spend a lot of time alone, it doesn't mean I'm not connected. I feel very connected to a lot of people, not least in my community. I have a membership for single women. I have siblings, I have a mom. I have the handful of very, very good friends. And so I feel extremely connected despite the fact that I'm physically alone a lot of the time. And actually speaking of being physically alone, that's one of the chapters in the book is about living alone. And I think living alone is a total gift. I absolutely love it. And so many of the underrated benefits of being single and not having kids, they're not small things. Freedom is not a small thing. Peace is not a small thing. Emotional stability is not a small thing yet. We sort of toss them aside and we kind of brush them off as if they're no big deal. But the benefits of not having children and the benefits of not being in a relationship are, I think more meaningful than we give them credit for.

  Nandita Bajaj (32:03):

  I think that's beautiful, and I'm so glad that you chose to focus on that aspect of it and what you said about really being comfortable with being in your own company and being quiet and the peace and the solitude that you talked about. They are so deeply underrated because so much of our lives, we are taught to seek after things, to find meaning in things and relationships or through children or through something that's outside of ourselves. But unless we have found what you just described, which is being so comfortable with your own mind, your own self, none of the things that we seek after will ever bring us that fulfillment. And I just think you are such a wonderful example of someone who is exemplifying that and normalizing such a beautiful life that is possible from being single, being childfree, and having all the connections in the world with nature, with yourself and with other people, but on your own terms, it's just wonderful. Lucy, thank you so much for the incredible work that you are doing, fighting through just the strong pronatlaism of our world that is preventing so many of us from finding that confidence within ourselves. I'm really, really grateful that you are out there doing this work and that you've dedicated your life to normalizing this because there aren't enough of us doing this work. Our collaboration is so much more important than ever before, and I am so grateful for it. Thank you so much.

  Lucy (33:50):

  You are so incredibly kind, and I'm so grateful to you too, and for you and for having me on this podcast. And I couldn't agree more that the kind of cross section between your work and my work, it's really just, it's so important and Nandita thank you for your incredibly kind words. I really appreciate it, and I'm so honored to be asked on your podcast. Thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a complete joy to speak to you.

  Nandita Bajaj (34:16):

  Oh, it's been my absolute pleasure and honor. Thank you so much, Lucy. That's all for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. Do you have your own story you'd like to share? Check out the show notes to see how you can get in touch with me, whether you'd like to share feedback about the show or a particular episode, or whether you'd like to join me on the show to share your own story. I'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much again for joining me today as we collectively discover and celebrate the many different pathways to fulfillment beyond pronatalism. Beyond Pronatalism is brought to you by Population Balance, the only nonprofit organization advancing ecological and reproductive justice by confronting pronatalism. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Nandita Bajaj, with the support of my production team, Josh Wild and Alan Ware.

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