After nearly becoming a mother in a marriage that wasn’t right, Jennifer shares how divorce and a commitment to self-definition became her path to clarity. Starting over has been emotionally wrenching, but she's forging her own path of deep friendship, meaningful community service, and dedication to authentically being herself.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

OVERSHOOT Episode: Rhaina Cohen | The Other Significant Others

Jennifer (00:00):
I felt so out of place. I was like, I'm weird and I should try to drink the Kool-Aid, kept buying further into this happy southern housewife thing, and we actually almost, thankfully it didn't happen, but we almost did have a child before we divorced. Being on the fringe is so challenging. It was so exhausting that you kind of want to make it easier on yourself. So I was like, maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe I should just want to have a kid. Maybe I should just want to be married. And the answer is, I just didn't.
Nandita (00:33):
That was today's guest, Jennifer. Hi everyone, and thank you for joining me. My name is Nandita Bajaj and I'm the host of Beyond Pronatalism, Finding Fulfillment With or Without Kids -an interview series in which through intimate conversations with women and men from diverse backgrounds, I explore how they are courageously and creatively navigating pronatalism - the often unspoken pressures to have children, whether from family, friends, or the culture at large. In each episode, I dive into personal stories with people who are forging unconventional pathways to fulfillment, including redefining what family means to them, whether that means being childfree or childless, having biological kids, adopting or fostering children or animals, or creating close-knit communities of friends and loved ones. Hi Jennifer. Welcome to the podcast. It is wonderful to have you on.
Jennifer (01:28):
It's wonderful to be here. Thank you so much.
Nandita (01:31):
And Jennifer, you sent me a message which was a really sweet heartening message about how much this podcast meant to you, and I am really excited that you decided to actually join us on the show to share with us your own story and also why these narratives have been so helpful for you. So let's begin by hearing a little bit about your own background.
Jennifer (01:58):
Sure. So I grew up on the corner of New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. So I grew up, I went to high school there and I left probably over half my life ago. And I've been in North Carolina ever since. So I grew up Catholic, but my parents divorced very young. I was an only child with divorced parents in a, what I call now a rogue Catholic school. Looking back, I had a very interesting and bizarre upbringing. I didn't have a lot of pressure necessarily besides the regular, just general societal pressure. I had aunts and uncles on both sides of my family who did not have kids. Again, in a Catholic family that's very strange. And they were both hardcore Catholic on both sides. And then even my parents, after they divorced, there was no pressure from my family to marry and have kids. It was kind of assumed in the background, but they were very focused on like, well, what are you going to do?
(02:46):
What are you going to go to college? Get the degree? What do you want to do with life? We didn't get to have that choice, so we want you to have that choice. And then when I moved to North Carolina, it became a very different narrative, which is funny. I was in college and it was just everywhere. It was like, what do you mean you're not focused on kids or family? I remember actually going to a Catholic church here, one of my first times, and we were chatting with the priest outside and he's like, you're not here for a degree. You're here for an Mrs. And I'll be honest, I didn't understand what he was talking about. What is an Mrs.? I thought it was like a degree type I didn't know about. I just didn't even occur to me. And then when I figured it out later, I was like, really?
Nandita (03:23):
What is an Mrs?
Jennifer (03:25):
Misses.
Nandita (03:26):
Oh, right.
Jennifer (03:26):
Exactly. I had the same exact reaction. It took me days to figure out what he was talking about. He thought I came to college to get married and have a kid, and I'm like, this is so different than what I have ever experienced before. And now that I have been here for now another additional 20 years after that, it is just so interesting how it is just in common discussion when you just meet somebody. It was not something I grew up with, but down here it's just like, oh, you don't have kids. I always kind of have to be defensive when I interact with somebody. I am not married and I do not have kids. I don't freak out when you say you have two kids. We can talk about other things. There are a million other topics.
(04:05):
There are a million other ways I contibute. I am part of multiple volunteer organizations. I am volunteer on boards. I am always taking the time that I guess I understand, and I do have friends with kids that kids take and I try to take it and do something else for the world with it. I am committing two sins. I've also divorced. I have since left that faith and I am no longer there. But it is interesting how it is so different between say New York and North Carolina, and it is also different just on how people have been raised, what the focus is. I did the marriage thing. That did not work, because it is not necessarily seen as a partnership on a lot of levels and particularly the expectation on the two partners - who's expected to do what and that. There's still that societal difference.
(04:49):
So I was super excited to hear male voices on this podcast. That was like, oh, okay, it's not just a female thing. They are also getting the same thing. Luckily I listened in the car where I'm screaming like, yes. I'm like, you got it exactly. I think the one who left, Ash was her name and she had said she's trying to leave her community while needing community. That's how we're all trying to do it, and it can be so hard. I think I could pull something from every single podcast and I was like, amen, hallelujah. Let's support this. Let's be cheering for these voices that we don't hear and that are outlining a very important thing for our world, for the people in our world, for the continuation of our world as we want it to be. It is a much bigger societal issue, climate issue. I keep hearing and reading that kids are more depressed, more suicidal, more unhappy. The kids I know they are not happy, they're not. So I'm like, no, let me not have a kid and bring the kid into it. Let me help and see if I can help them this way. Maybe they'll feel better about the climate, about the role they're inheriting. Maybe they'll see hope. Maybe they will think that there are adults out there who do care.
Nandita (05:54):
Yeah. Thank you for that background. And it's interesting to me that you said that you didn't hear those kinds of pronatalist messages growing up as much, even though you grew up in a Catholic family, but much more in North Carolina. Within the societal culture you said marriage was a given kind of within your family upbringing. What were the messages that you were receiving around that and why did it end up not working out?
Jennifer (06:22):
It's so funny when I found out, when I was older and I was like, mom, I went to Catholic school. She was like, you're aware that I wasn't affiliated with anything and that we didn't have approval from the church. I was like, oh, I went to a rogue Catholic school. That explains everything. So they weren't very focused on that part of it. Looking back, they were very much more focused on the social justice movements within the Catholic church - to support more appreciation for the world around us, for the people around us, and not necessarily feeding into the machine of we need to make people to buy things to then keep the machine going. And it feels like I was almost raised to be ready to hear that. And it really wasn't about the marriage and family. It was a given of kind of like everybody's married. Looking back, all of my classmates had at least four or five siblings.
(07:08):
I had none. But it didn't occur to me until I came to North Carolina and multiple people felt free to ask and to comment about it. It just wasn't something we did. And I think looking back, even talking to my aunts and uncles now that I'm older, they had their struggles. I mean, they were at least married, but they didn't have kids. My parents divorced. They were the first ones, and it has been a spiral and now I am since divorced. For me, marriage as it is understood and as it is practiced in this country is not a partnership. It is a legally binding institution that does not serve either party. That's fine. It works for some people. But I think for me, I just knew my focus of life was to be who I am and serve how I'm called to serve, not how someone else tells me to do it.
(07:55):
So for me, again, I felt so odd, I felt so out of place. I was like, I'm weird and I should try to drink the Kool-Aid. And we actually almost, thankfully it didn't happen, but we almost did have a child before we divorced. But I think he and I both realized we were both ambivalent about it and it caused other things and then eventually the end of our relationship. But I think that pressure to still fit in and only be so fringe enough, only be this amount of fringe and you got to pick which one, and being on the fringe is so challenging and so exhausting that you kind of want to make it easier on yourself. So I was like, maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe I should just want to have a kid. Maybe I should just want to be married. And the answer is I just didn't.
(08:32):
That's just not how I am wired. And as I divorced and saw the system and really saw it through my own eyes or it was just me and there was nobody else, and dealing with the legal and the financial parts of it, just realizing how the system is not set up for anybody's health and wellbeing - people, society, cultures, Earth, the whole thing. Our systems are set up as businesses and that is not the way to help and be with people and heal people. It's just not. And I'm in a partnership now. I'm very grateful. I am happy to be in a partnership, but I will never ever tie myself to somebody like that again. That is because when that person decides to leave and you're on the hook, that is not a loving relationship. You could have a loving relationship without the legal. That's my stance on it.
Nandita (09:17):
And within the marriage, you said that both of you had ambivalence around having a child, but you kind of came close to having one. At what point did you know or come to realize that you were ambivalent and was this something you arrived at together with your ex-partner or on your own you kind of knew?
Jennifer (09:36):
A little bit of both. Again, this was a high school relationship. We were married, oh my gosh, almost like nine or 10. We were together almost 15 years. But as I think we grew and as I kept buying further into this happy southern housewife thing and I was like, we're 30, now we're established. There's technically no excuse. And then we're like, well, maybe we should do it. It was half-hearted, I think on both of our parts. It might not have been for him. I am still very unclear on that, but I think there were times where we were like, we know we're lying to each other. And I think he might've really wanted it, and I think he knew I really didn't, but I think I knew even as I was doing it, I was not all in. It was that last ditch effort that you know is not going to work.
(10:15):
And we were already having difficulties prior to this thing. I think we also thought, oh, we'll have a kid, that'll solve the problem. And then there's so many people, when I was discussing that I was having difficulties, they' like have a kid. Like what? For real? Did you just not hear what I said? I just remember being baffled by it. Even as we were separating and divorcing, I remember people being like, well, just give him what he wants. And I'm like, what? No. And so again, that's why I say this, and I'll say this again for any man who shares, I just appreciate it. There's still that kind of archaic view of women of like, well, that's just what you're supposed to do. But I made a conscious choice. I was very, very proactive in contraception and I am today. There's a no go zone because I'm able to, luckily I have a partner who understands and respects that and is on the same page as me.
(11:01):
And society doesn't like that. I've had many conversations with pro-lifers. They don't like me. Where I've had the discussion I said, y'all tell me you're providing and you're not providing for the woman. You're providing for the kid till the kid gets out. But you're stripping all the other benefits. You're stripping food at schools. You're stripping daycare. So don't sit there and tell me that you're pro-life. You are not pro-life. And if you are pro-life, that means you honor life in all of its forms, however it manifests. So I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You're picking and choosing and I'm just not having it.
Nandita (11:33):
And was it after you had your divorce that you got more clarity about both marriage and wanting to be childfree?
Jennifer (11:42):
Yeah, I think I had always known I'd wanted to be childfree. I think it was going through that divorce. I was left to pay off his debt. I worked three or four jobs for about three or four years to pay that off, because I was unable to get that funds from him. So I kind of became much clearer on one who gets my time and energy. I got into this probably because I wasn't clear and I was just following the crowd, and I need to not necessarily do that again, because I know who I am and I know what I believe. In more cases, I've decided just to step back from a lot of people and a lot of things which has hurt because they were my community. It's hard when they are your support, they were your support and you're trying to find other support, but you still have to interact on a daily basis with these people. And it's just been a challenge. Luckily, I'm further along than I was.
Nandita (12:29):
Yes, sure. And are you no longer a practicing Catholic?
Jennifer (12:34):
I'm no longer an active Catholic. I am necessarily no longer tied to the church. I have now taken my time and my talents and I have moved them to other movements - supporting women, supporting those with disabilities, just supporting other ways to be spiritual and to be connected with everybody as opposed to one little organization that says, you should do this and you should do that.
Nandita (12:56):
Right. And when you were moving away from both your marriage and making a more confident commitment to your childfree life, what kind of pushback did you get, if any, from those around you, whether family or culture?
Jennifer (13:13):
The funniest thing, my mother has been my biggest supporter, and I remember I had that conversation with my mother inadvertently a couple of years ago, but she's the one who brought it up. She's got friends who've got grandkids, and she was like, you never have to give me anything. You exist and I wanted you. She's been super supportive. She's almost kind of inadvertently said, I'm kind of glad you didn't. And I think she knew when I was younger, I remember someone commented, I had stuffed animals over a baby doll. I was into playing house only becuase I liked to cook, but it was only the cooking part. I was not really interested in the rest of it. So my mother has been a huge, huge support, but a lot of times when people do react, I'm like, yep. And then I just, either we move on or we just don't talk. Like I said, that's probably been tough, becuase they were very, very supportive of me for a long time and I try to support them, but I just know that we have a difference of opinion. So I've had to change communities. I've had to change people and support, and I probably am out and about less than I used to be, really picking and choosing who I talk to, who I confide in and who becomes my family, just because I've had to from my own health and wellbeing.
Nandita (14:17):
Yeah. And so have you been able to find a community now to replace the previous community with whom you don't share those many values anymore?
Jennifer (14:25):
Not necessarily community. You find your people in the certain places, you know this person and this place you can be honest with and this person, you can't. Religion is a part of everything, and I know we know that as a country that it's more than we prefer, but I cannot express how extreme it is. It is part of everything, and by religion I mean Christianity toward the right side here. It is just in everything, and I have to be very careful what I say and how I say it, even in some of my volunteering. So I have picked and chosen certain people, but unfortunately that community is something that has been lacking, like a place that I know I can go and be totally safe. And again, I think of all the millions of people who have this same experience because of their color, because of their sexual orientation, because of everything.
(15:13):
And I'm like, this is awful. And I know as I am a very privileged person, if it is this bad for me and that's ridiculous, how much worse is it for someone who does not have the privilege I do. That's really opened my eyes kind of as I've tried to find community, how hard it is to find and how wonderful it is to build and when you build it, just how sacred it is, how important it is. So when it's like, well, you don't have a family, I'm like do you understand how much harder I worked? We had to actually be intimate and real. It was not just, this is my child, therefore they're my family and they might even grow up to dislike you. And there are so many things you don't know. There's just an assumption that the family you marry into, your biological family, will always be your family and they'll always be there.
(15:56):
No, that is not the case. At least I'm building some of these individual relationships. So yeah, it's a challenge. I think particularly we swim in this pronatal thing. A lot of us don't even realize it, and I think I fall asleep sometimes more than I wish I would, thinking that that's just the way this is and just succumb to the river and just succumb to letting it take you down, and it can be hard to do that, and so I can understand and I get why it is such a challenge to build it right now.
Nandita (16:23):
Definitely. Yeah. Well put. It really does feel for so many people who are, as you've said, working in fringe movements like ours, it can feel like a constant upstream battle. You have to justify your choices more. You are being probed a lot more than a lot of people who are taking say, the dominant path.
Jennifer (16:45):
Right. Like nobody questions why are you having kids? Nobody's like, Hey, maybe that's not a great idea. You are not necessarily healthy and not in a financial situation, and that's just going to be more anguish and stress and you're already anguished and stressed or like the fact that adoption is such a battle. There are loving people who can support these children, but it requires one, a whole lot of money, right back there in the capitalist system. It is not a life. We are valuing money and it requires this time and energy that the system will not necessarily let them take.
Nandita (17:16):
Definitely. Yeah, I agree. Totally. What does family or community mean to you? What would it look like in an ideal world for you to be surrounded by the kind of people you'd love to be authentic with, to be yourself with?
Jennifer (17:29):
That is an interesting question. I continue to ask myself this. I believe there are more people waking up to this. I am seeing little glimmers where I hadn't here in the past - that we are all in a fog and being able to be honest and open even if we don't agree. What if we could disagree and nobody felt their way of life was threatened and that it became such an issue that you had to yell and scream and sometimes do some horrible things. I do find the older you get as a woman, the easier it is to get people to be honest, the easier it is for older women to be honest, or you just feel more established in yourself. As I'm out particularly talking to women of a certain age, I'm getting more connection there. I'm getting more of the like what we are doing as a society is stupid.
(18:13):
This has got to be different. Divorced women, man, powerhouses, particularly those who have gone through some stuff. They're way more than willing to tear it all down and start again. So it's finding those people and divorced men too. I've had a couple connections with some divorced men who have had unfortunately experiences just like some divorced women. You're so siloed as a woman. For some reason, friendship is so like secondary where it is the only thing that matters. It is the only thing that matters. I have two friends who without them I would have not made it through my divorce. They stood by me through some crazy, crazy stuff. I mean, I will go to the stake for these women. That is my family, and the fact that we so trivialize as women growing up, oh, your friends or whatever, we almost try to take them out of support for themselves and we say, well, go get married.
(19:01):
We are going to cut you off from the people who truly know, love, and support you. And then I feel like as people divorce or as people get older, they just are like, yep, I did your game. It was crap. I need them, my support. And we go back and we find those people and we find those friends. So yeah, I have community. They're not necessarily physically near me, but it's such an interesting thing that either as you get older or as you've played the game by society and then they cut you out where you're like, why is friendship not the most important?
Nandita (19:26):
I so appreciate you saying that because just recently we interviewed an author on our other podcast and her name is Rhaina Cohen, and I encourage all our listeners to check her book out, and it's called The Other Significant Others, and it's something about the role of friendship in our lives, in our psychological, emotional wellbeing. It is underplayed and we're expected not to give that much to our friendships, even though they mean so incredibly much to us, and I encourage you to go check out that book. It's exactly what you're saying.
Jennifer (20:04):
I will, because I think also, like I said, that divorce was very pivotal and I realized these are two women who have been with me through marrying him, through divorcing him. They have been there to help pick up pieces. One of my best friend's husband's also been a serious ally, and I'm like, I'm married to these three people. These are my people. We might not live in the same house. Maybe we should rethink about that. I've been talking with other women about communes as we get older, how do we all figure out how to take care of ourselves? How do we do this without having to opt into all these other things, so they have my undying loyalty. We shove women into marriage and we expect that to be the be all, end all and then wonder why everybody's upset and miserable and why are a ton of women on medication. I don't think it has to do with any of their biological, but we cut them off from support and then either in midlife, perimenopause, whatever, then it's like, oh, wait, Nope, I'm over it. I'm done. So I still wish I had this unfilter when I was 20, but it is what it is.
Nandita (21:02):
Well, I'm so glad that you've arrived at that place where you feel so comfortable and confident in expressing your views and owning your decisions and being so happy with the choices you've made. Even though people around you may not totally support them, there is something so good about just owning your decision, right? Owning your life and being in charge, and even if you're swimming upstream, it's like, well, it's a joyful swim. Yeah. This is such a fascinating story. Jennifer, is there anything else you wanted to bring up to wrap up the conversation?
Jennifer (21:37):
I will say this. I appreciate, well, just your understanding of it. You're like, you don't have to share your last name. I have a very distinctive last name and the fact that I want to be strong enough to put my last name on there. I want to be, but I will not, because I just know the ramifications. Again, these little decisions just perfectly illustrating like, I want a swim upstream and I want to be confident. This is who I am, and I understand and know anybody who doesn't say it publicly or proud or who might not respond because they're afraid. I get it because we all have got to make decisions based on multiple factors on any given day - what we share, what we don't share, and how we live our life. I just want to reiterate that. Just say that. I get it, and you're not alone to anybody who thinks you're alone. You're not alone. There are others. We're just doing the same thing as you. We're figuring it out. We're all going to figure it out.
Nandita (22:25):
Yeah, yeah. We've got a collective of people now, right? A growing collective of people who are giving strength to this movement and validating these choices for everyone, and also embracing the many different pathways that exist for fulfillment. Thank you so much for joining me to share your own story. I am really happy that, number one, that you shared the story, but also that you are being very strategic about how you keep yourself protected psychologically and emotionally, and also surrounding yourself with those who are supportive and loving of your choices.
Jennifer (23:04):
Thank you so much. I appreciate being able to chat with you and to share if it can help somebody else.
Nandita (23:09):
Absolutely. That's all for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. What did you think of this episode? Do you have your own story you'd like to share? Check out the show notes to see how you can get in touch with me. Whether you'd like to share feedback about the show or a particular episode, or whether you'd like to join me on the show to share your own story, I'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much again for joining me today as we collectively discover and celebrate the many different pathways to fulfillment beyond pronatalism. Beyond Pronatalism is brought to you by Population Balance, the only nonprofit organization advancing ecological and reproductive justice by confronting pronatalism. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Nandita Bajaj, with the support of my production team, Josh Wild and Alan Ware.