As a newly minted financial planner who was also childfree, Jay Zigmont realized that the profession was fully pronatalist in its assumptions and that the childfree were being woefully disserved. On a mission to help people without kids live their best lives, with the plan and finances to support it, Jay founded Childfree Trust (recognized as Time Magazine’s best inventions of 2026) and Childfree Wealth. Contrary to standard financial advice that assumes children, Jay often advises the childfree to rent not own, spend or donate and not accumulate, not get married, and to quit unfulfilling jobs.
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
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Jay Zigmont (00:00):
And what was interesting is as I was studying to become a certified financial planner, the entire education around finance, it just assumes you either will have kids or you do have kids. And my question was really, well, are me and my wife weird? So we don't have kids and are we weird for the life we're living and the childfree world and all that? And come to find out, nope, it's about 25% of the US. So then why does all the financial and healthcare, all that system, assume you have kids? I've talked to probably a thousand childfree people about their life and finances over the past five years. A lot of childfree people feel weird, and the reason they feel weird is because they're comparing against everybody else, like the general population. We spend more time with our childfree clients talking about life planning than financial planning.
(00:42):
You have to know what do you want to be when you grow up and what's the impact you want to make and what do you want your legacy to be? Which are questions nobody asks. And what we find is there's so much of the standard life script written into our heads that we have to kind of unprogram.
Nandita Bajaj (01:05):
That was today's guest, Jay Zigmont. Hi everyone, and thank you for joining me. My name is Nandita Bajaj and I'm the host of Beyond Pronatalism: Finding Fulfillment With or Without Kids, an interview series in which through intimate conversations with people from diverse backgrounds, I explore how they are courageously and creatively navigating pronatalism, the often unspoken pressures to have children, whether from family, friends, or the culture at large. Each episode features a personal story, born out of liberated and informed choice, about redefining what family means, including being childfree or childless, having biological kids, adopting or fostering children or animals, or creating close-knit communities of friends and loved ones. Hi, and welcome to Beyond Pronatalism, Jay. Wonderful to have you here.
Jay Zigmont (02:00):
Thanks for having me.
Nandita Bajaj (02:01):
Yes, and Jay, we've gone back and forth for a number of years on a number of different childfree related events, and it's my pleasure truly to finally have you on the podcast and talk about the incredible work that you are doing. And by way of introduction, I'm just going to quickly say a few things about your professional career in this field, and then I'd love for you to elaborate on that. So Dr. Jay Zigmont is the founder of Childfree Wealth and Childfree Trust, and also the author of The Childfree Guide to Life and Money: Make Your Finances Simple So Your Life Without Kids Can Be Amazing. And I'd love to both explore your personal exploration of the childfree choice, how you arrived at it, but also the work that you're doing within this field of financial advising, wealth management, and estate planning, because it's an area that is so sorely lacking within our community. And so yeah, let's get started. Can you share a brief introduction, Jay?
Jay Zigmont (03:11):
Sure. So I'm Dr. Jay Zigmont. I am out of Nashville, 48. My PhD is actually adult learning. I come out of healthcare and academia and kind of burnt out of that world and then started working on this financial side. And what was interesting is as I was studying to become a certified financial planner, the entire education around finance, it just assumes you either will have kids or you do have kids. And my question was really, well, are me and my wife weird? So we don't have kids and, you know, we are a little weird. We're two PhDs. We sit around dinner talking about research studies, but are we weird for the life we're living and the childfree world and all that? I didn't even know the word childfree existed at the time. This is five plus years ago. And come to find out, nope, it's about 25% of the US.
(03:52):
So then why does all the financial and healthcare, all that system, assume you have kids? And you and I could probably talk about that all day long, but that's a huge miss. It's been my research area since then, written a couple books and done a bunch of press and TEDx talks and all that, because I spent about half my time talking to childfree people about their finances and their life and the other half talking to financial people about childfree people. So it's kind of an interesting life that I'm living.
Nandita Bajaj (04:19):
No kidding. I'm very eager to get into the crux of the work that you're doing today, but I always like to begin with a brief background in terms of upbringing. What kind of messages were you receiving growing up and how have you navigated those?
Jay Zigmont (04:39):
Yeah, I think growing up, the reality check is men don't get the same push that women do. And as I talk to folks across the country, you see the same thing. I probably would've been considered a fence sitter and not really had an absolute want to get this done or not, or have kids or not. I grew up Methodist, so in the church there wasn't too much pressure around it. It's just kind of what you did. You got married, you have kids, you did the standard American dream, but it wasn't like you must have kids to make your life whole. So the decision was kind of made for us. Some folks will push back at me and say, Well, you're technically childless because you didn't choose to. And I don't know, childfree, childless, the terms are always a problem, let's just call it that. But my wife has a fifty fifty chance of dying if she got pregnant, and I found that out while we were dating, before we got engaged, and that made the decision for us.
(05:25):
That's it. And what's interesting about that is for us, it was relatively simple. For everybody around us, not so much. Probably what got most interesting is we got towards getting married. She was raised Catholic and altar girl and all that fun stuff, like hardcore Catholic, and her family said, Hey, get married in the Catholic church. We'll pay all the bills. You can have the dream, wedding, all that fun stuff. And I said, Fine. I was raised Methodist. Methodists are kind of cool with whatever religion. It didn't make a big difference. So we go and have the Pre-Cana meetings with the priests to have that conversation, and we get to the point where they say, Hey, you have to agree to raise your kids Catholic. And we said, Sure, no problem. We're not having any, so we'll agree to it. Yeah, turns out the actual wording is you have to agree to have kids and raise them Catholic. We ended up going to three different priests and none of them would marry us because we weren't going to have kids.
Nandita Bajaj (06:19):
Wow. Even though they were aware that it was a health-related decision?
Jay Zigmont (06:24):
Yes. I have a colleague who, he'd actually looked at going to become a priest, and he's in the financial world specifically serving Catholic families. And what he said was the loophole, which I found out years later, is we are open to whatever God gives us, knowing it ain't going to happen. I'm like, That just doesn't feel right. I had a family member say, Just lie to the priest. I'm like, I'm not lying to a priest. I'm not Catholic, but there's a circle of hell for that. So we got married, I don't know, what is it, 17 years ago, and I thought maybe it was just a, well, an old timey thing, but I had somebody recently on Facebook reach out to me like, Yep, six months ago we had the same thing. And I was like, Really? This is still there? And it is what it is. I mean, it's part of that religion, that 'be fruitful and multiply thing.' And I never would've expected it, but I mean, it caused a whole bunch of drama and is the family going to show up to the wedding?
(07:16):
And we just decided to do our own thing. We had a small wedding. We got married in my local church down the road, very small church, kind of anti-wedding. We just had lunch at a gorgeous Chinese restaurant down the road, rented out the whole restaurant, had 75 people. We just paid for it out of pocket. It was beautiful. Nothing fancy because we're like, All right, if we're going to do it our way, we do it our way. And it was great, but all the trauma around it kind of pulled down a little bit around the process. Some of the family members, we didn't know if they were coming until they showed up at the church.
Nandita Bajaj (07:46):
That's so disheartening. What was the response like from your own immediate family around this?
Jay Zigmont (07:52):
Yeah, I think my family was a little more understanding. There wasn't the huge pressure. I will say one of the fun ones, so in 2010, I finished my PhD, and at the same time at Christmas, my sister announced that she was pregnant with her first child. It was the first grandchild, the first thing. And my wife, being a little bit of a wise guy, asked the family, So which is a bigger achievement, Jay getting his PhD or his sister having the first child? I'm not going to tell you the answer for that. You can guess what it was.
Nandita Bajaj (08:22):
I know the answer.
Jay Zigmont (08:23):
But it's like one of those things you're like, Really? Me and my sister were the first ones in our family to go to college at all. And now I'm with a doctorate and I'm like, Yeah, sure. And I don't want to hold anything against my sister, but it's just an example of how that works in real life. And I've told that story over and over and everybody knows the punchline to the story and they're like, I don't know how to even ask the question. And I'm like, Yeah, you're probably right, but it makes a better story that we did.
Nandita Bajaj (08:48):
I agree. I'm glad that your wife asked that question. It's always good to get people to question why there is this dominant narrative around what's worth celebrating and what's not. So what have the last 17 years or so looked like for you being a couple living a life without children?
Jay Zigmont (09:09):
We kind of embraced something that I would talk about in the book, we call the 'gardener and the rose' approach - where one person is growing, getting to follow their dreams and the other one's following. And it comes out of the academic world where they often have the person who gets a tenure track position and then there's what's called a trailing spouse. I hate that term, but the concept is really, as a childfree couple, it's very hard for two people to find jobs at the top of their career in the same place at the same time and not have negative impacts. So I talk about in the book, look, my wife and I, she's the rose right now and when it's my turn to be the rose, we're going to get on a boat and travel the world. Her turn right now with followed a career and we got to move to three, four different states.
(09:50):
And I think it's one of those things that people overlook. And it's part of the reason why if you actually look at the data, the gender wage gap around money disappears in childfree couples because you can follow the careers. So we've done that. And one of my favorite examples, my wife got offered a tenure track position in Mississippi and we were in Connecticut at the time. I'm like, Sure, let's move to Mississippi. By the way, never been to Mississippi. I have no clue what's there. Sure, but let's go. As long as we have internet access, I can do whatever I got to do. And we literally just packed up our dogs and went. I mean, the hardest part was we had two English Mastiffs in the back of a Prius, which they're 150 pound dogs. It's huge. It's hilarious to see, but we can do that and follow our best lives and just get up and go.
(10:34):
And what was interesting is watching people react to me moving for my wife's career, there were a lot of folks kind of like, You're doing what? I don't know if that's a pronatalist or a misogynist or what it is, but that patriarchal kind of routine, like you're moving for your wife's career? I'm like, Yeah, absolutely. And it's just normal.
Nandita Bajaj (10:55):
Yes. It's such a good example. The flexibility it gives you, but I really like what you said about both of you have been able to really find your own niche and are able to support each other in that. And your passion, as you said over the last five years, has really turned to looking at the huge gap in financial planning, et cetera, for childfree people and how underrepresented they are. Can you talk a little bit about your journey to arriving at that recognition and then taking matters in your own hand and saying, Well, I'm going to fill that gap?
Jay Zigmont (11:34):
Yeah. I think one of the challenges is if you go out and you're going to do financial planning, financial coaching, whatever it is, and you look at the business books on it, everybody says you have to have a niche. Who are the people you were serving? Everybody says that. And I had a bunch of different ideas for business, but what was interesting to me is that nobody was talking about this childfree world. I mean, nobody. I was talking to a financial planner the other day, and the way they said it was like, Why are they hiding research about childfree people? And I'm like, They're not hiding it. It doesn't exist. In the financial literature, it just doesn't exist. So in 2021, being a researcher by nature, I went out and talked to a lot of folks, and that actually created my first book, Portraits of Childfree Wealth, which is just stories about what people's lives are like as childfree people.
(12:20):
Book didn't sell a lot of copies, but I needed the information. I need to understand what is it like to live that life? And I've got my own picture, but that doesn't mean that's the same for everybody. And what we found was there was a whole bunch of things that are similarities. For example, childfree people don't prioritize passing on money to the next generation, which is kind of obvious, but you need the data to back that up. Childfree people, much more fluid in their careers. They tend not to retire at the same level. They tend to be much more nomadic. There's a whole bunch of these tendencies. And what happens is when I would talk to childfree clients, we'd have the introductory meeting, about half of the meetings would end up in tears. And I was like, Help me understand this. So I finally asked somebody.
(13:00):
I was like, Please just help me out understand this. You're in tears. Part of me is like, Did I do something wrong? Yeah, this is what it is. And here's what she said. She said it was the first time that she felt heard and seen. That's the power. And the fact that that's the truth is why we need to fix this. And I will tell folks, if you work with a financial planner, go ask them how your plan is different because you're childfree, and I've done some research on it. The number one answer I get back is when they ask a financial planner, how is it different? The answer is, you'll change your mind.
Nandita Bajaj (13:30):
Wow.
Jay Zigmont (13:31):
The number two answer is it's not different. Number three is, I don't know, we'll figure it out. I'm actually okay with, 'I don't know, we'll figure it out'. Because prior to me writing all this stuff, 2021 and through 2022, it didn't exist in literature. So I understand other planners don't understand how it works, but this stuff about you'll just change your mind. I had a planner the other day tell me the story. He says, I didn't think about all this. He goes, If somebody said they're childfree, I just put in their plan 2.5 kids. And I'm like, Yeah, we're going to stop doing that. And he was like, You're right. I will. But that's how ingrained it is into the system.
Nandita Bajaj (14:04):
And condescending, right? It's the same that we find with medical professionals refusing to give people sterilizations or vasectomies because they think they know better about their future choices than the person themselves. And so you see this deeply structural pronatalism.
Jay Zigmont (14:24):
I was talking to a conference of financial therapists. So this is really interesting because this is the group that's inclusive of everybody. And I talked about childfree stuff, and they pulled me over the table after the conference and said, Hey, can I ask you some questions? Great. And their first question was, Is it okay to ask somebody if they're childfree? And I said to them, I said, Well, let me ask you a question. Do you ever ask somebody if they're LGBTQ+? They said, No, I would never do that. They go, Cool. Then why would you ask them about being childfree? We let them self-identify. You can build things in the system and do that. Here's what I do in my documents. I ask people, Do you have kids? Are you planning on having kids? And if you say no, I'm never going to talk to you about it. They're really trying to understand it, and I really give them credit for it.
(15:04):
And then the follow-up question was, okay, let's say I do my process and on my intake, I identify they're childfree or childless or whatever it is. Is it okay to ask them why? And I said, Well, let me ask you again. Would you ever ask somebody who's LGBTQ+ who says they're gay, why? They said, No, I never would. I'm like, Okay, I'm going to kind of leave it there. But what's interesting about that is these are the people that are very well-meaning and they're trying to reason through how to do it, but you can see them just grasping at like, I don't know what to do with this.
Nandita Bajaj (15:36):
It speaks volumes to the invisibility of the childfree community or to just the community of people without children. We're invisible even though we are a huge number. So would you tell me a bit more about the work you're doing with both the Childfree Trust and Childfree Wealth? What are the kinds of questions that you get asked? What are the kinds of advice that you give people?
Jay Zigmont (16:04):
Yeah, so I've talked to probably a thousand childfree people about their life and finances over the past five years. So a couple of things I found. One, a lot of childfree people feel weird, and the reason they feel weird is because they're comparing against everybody else, like the general population. We spend more time with our childfree clients talking about life planning than financial planning. You have to know what do you want to be when you grow up and what's the impact you want to make and what do you want your legacy to be? Which are questions nobody asks. So we actually, in our financial planning process, meet with clients on a monthly basis to work through this. And what we find is there's so much of the standard life script written into our heads that we have to kind of unprogram. And I'll give you a great example of this.
(16:44):
My default answer for childfree people is to never buy a house, just rent. But then what they'll do is they'll push back on me and go, Well, the only way to get ahead is to own a house. I go, Well, whose voice in your head is telling you you got to do that? And it's society, it's often parents, it's often father figures, others who have said that's the way to get ahead. Well, the reality is childfree people move every couple years, two, three, four, five. They're not buying a house and staying there for the school system. So assumptions around buying a house, owning real estate, it just doesn't work. And in the US in particular, there's some tax rules that don't work for childfree people, because much of the reason why owning real estate works is because you're passing on to the next generation, and when you do, it gets what's called a step-up in basis, which means the taxes disappear.
(17:32):
Well, if you're not doing that, the math doesn't work. But I have to unprogram things like everybody believes owning a house is better because it's better for those who have kids. It's the classical American dream. I'm like, That's not the life you want to live. You just told me you want to move to France in the next six months. Don't buy a house. Or you just told me you don't know where you're going to be in the next four years, then don't buy a house. My wife and I, we sold our house a couple years ago. We rent. It's the best thing we did because I don't have to maintain it. I don't have to worry about it. And if whatever, the landlord upsets me, we'll just move. But it's so much of what's acceptable, what's normal, that's put into it. Another great example is all financial software, except for one, as soon as you put a couple in, they're automatically married.
(18:18):
Well, if you look at childfree people, one third will never marry. And if you look at people over 55, about 60% are legally single. They may be a couple, but they're not married. Actually, if a client asks me, should you get married? My question in the US is, do you need healthcare? They say no, and I'm like, there's really no reason to get married. Now you can get married for your own personal reasons, whatever you want, but there's no financial reason. But you put in the software, it automatically assumes they're married. It's all of these things that you don't realize until you're pushing against the system, and all of this system is based on assumptions. And one of my favorites to push back on is all of financial planning assumes you want your numbers to constantly go up. They assume you're going to take your money and pass it on to the next generation.
(19:00):
In the US, one of the largest financial planning firms has an ad out that I love picking on, and it says this way, they charge 1% of the assets and they say, We do better when you do better. Their argument is, As long as your money's going up, we get paid more. I'm like, Actually, no, that doesn't work for childfree people. It's why when we do financial planning, we charge a flat fee rather than being associated to your assets because there's a conflict of interest that you have to square around, hey, I can make more money if you have more in the bank, and you might want to spend it and enjoy your life. It's these type of things that people don't think about.
Nandita Bajaj (19:31):
Yes. And the essence of the book, The Childfree Guide to Life and Money, you talk a lot about not necessarily building this nest egg, but rather living the best life that you want to live today, whether that includes spending money on the things that you enjoy or giving away money on causes you care about. Can you speak to that, the more present-focused use of money rather than this very future-focused?
Jay Zigmont (19:58):
Yeah. I mean, the reality is a lot of childfree people follow what we call FILE instead of FIRE. So FIRE is very popular right now. It's 'Financial Independence Retire Early.' FILE is 'Financial Independence Live Early.' And really what that's about is how do we tune back work to the right work at the right time and make choices that match your life? So a great example of this. I had a paraplanner for a while and she was tracking how many of my introductory meetings with clients I would tell them to quit their jobs. And by the way, the number was almost all. And the reason is people go and do this job, and I have people making six figures and they're like, Ah, I went into this because it's a good job. I'm moving up the ladder, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, Okay, cool. So what you're telling me is for six figures, you're willing to be miserable. Where if instead you're saying, I want to find that balance, that's that FILE component of doing the work I enjoy at the right level across my life and not trying to save for retirement or pass on my next generation, you can make different choices in your career. For some reason, a lot of childfree people want to be librarians or authors or something with books.
(20:58):
I had somebody who was working in a good paying job and then eventually said, Nope, I'm going to go write books. I think she's on her third or fourth book and she's got a bestseller. Problem is as an author, you either make no money or bestsellers who do very well, but you take the chance, you enjoy your life, you see it, and yeah, so what if it messes up your retirement because that's not your goal?
Nandita Bajaj (21:20):
Right. So many of the people we've interviewed had that realization that they don't need to be following that script of saving for retirement. One talked about how he can work a 15-hour work week and spend the rest of his time volunteering for the things he really cares about. Someone else talked about being an artist and making very little money doing that, but being able to enjoy the passion that he could fulfill as a result. And to your point, it may not be true for everyone, but it's a fair statement that so many people end up taking unfulfilling work in order to provide for their children.
Jay Zigmont (22:03):
Yeah, so the unfortunate truth is our entire economy and world is based on an assumption that we need constant growth, just is. I was reading news one day and I found in Alabama, they are now at a population cliff where they're having more people die each year than being born, and they were talking about it. I happened to find at the same time, there was a TEDx conference coming up there, so I pitched to go to that TEDx conference and talk about this. So if you've never done a TEDx talk, it's super high pressure. It really is, and it's got to be exact. We had eight minutes and all this other fun stuff. I get there, I'm all prepared. I spent six months preparing for it, and I'm in the back and I'm talking to one of the other speakers, and we're talking about what's your topic, blah, blah, blah.
(22:48):
I said, Hey, I'm going to get up on stage and I'm going to say you can't change childfree people's minds around having kids, and that if you want constant growth, you need to embrace legal immigration. She turns to me and says, Did you bring a bulletproof vest?
Nandita Bajaj (23:00):
Oh my goodness.
Jay Zigmont (23:01):
And this is not a joke.This is flat out, did you? I said, No, should I? Well, here's what adds to that. The week that I did this, I think it was Thursday, I presented a TEDx, that Monday, Charlie Kirk was shot in the US. We were in that heightened time of political unrest and people getting shot for their speech, and this person just asked me did I bring a bulletproof vest. I apologize for my language, but I was shitting pickles. I was freaking out. I really was, and it's definitely the scariest thing I ever did in my life. I get up on stage. Now, I was worried about my security at the start. Now, this person just kind of spun me up, and I'm deep in the south in the US, and this is not the right topic to be talking about to this audience.
(23:45):
I got about halfway through my speech and locked up. I kind of forgot what I was going to say. I finally said to the audience, I said, Excuse me a minute. I just need to catch my breath. I'm a little worried about my safety around this stuff. I actually told them this. It's not in the recording. Luckily, they edited that out, but I'm like, I just need a minute. Then I got back into it and I was able to finish. But the fact that I'm having to worry about my personal safety because I'm talking about these topics is just amazing to me.
Nandita Bajaj (24:13):
My God. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I will link to your talk. I think it's a great one. As you know, the broader work that we do with Population Balance is all about challenging growthism. Jay, I know you did tell me that you have some big announcements you wanted to share. In addition to that, I'd love for you to also tie in anything else you want to tie in with the work that you do with Childfree Trust.
Jay Zigmont (24:38):
Yeah. So when we're talking to childfree people in the financial planning side, the number one question we got was, Well, who's going to make decisions for me when I can't? Now, the reality is, if you're childfree, you tell someone you're childfree, somebody's going to throw in your face. Well, who's going to take care of you when you're older? It's a trope at this point. Childfree Trust, that's what we do. We become childfree people's medical power of attorney, financial power attorney, executive and trustee. We become their decision maker. We become 24/7 emergency response. We are the one they list as in case of emergency. We're filling that gap because the entire system assumes, one, that you have kids, two, that you want them to make decisions for you, and three, that you trust them to do it. And if you don't, in the US, you end up in the court-appointed system where you have somebody from the government that's appointed to make decisions for you when you can't, and that's something nobody wants.
(25:23):
So we're doing a lot of work on that side, and it's kind of been an uphill battle. I've been working on this childfree trust thing for four or five years, and it was really hard to set up, but recently, we kind of got a nod in the right direction, and I do want to share this because I think it matters. So the first thing that happened in October is Childfree Trust was called out as one of the best inventions of the year by Time Magazine, and it's really cool to be one of the 300 there, and Time Magazine is kind of this old school, but well-respected, and we think that helps a lot. But here's what's more important about that. They put us in the social impact category. They put us in the same category where in previous years it was like people trying to cure hunger and fix immigration and these big sticky topics.
(26:08):
They're seeing this as a lot more than just a financial solution. They're seeing this as a societal problem that we are fixing. At the same time, later in October, we got accepted to be part of what's called Uplink Ventures, which is part of the World Economic Forum. Now, that doesn't literally mean I'm going to be speaking to Davos this year. That's not the case, but we do get to go to their events. We get to speak to some of them, but what it means is that the World Economic Forum, same as Time, is seeing this as a much bigger issue, and they're willing to give it a big platform. That's what's really interesting to me, because that is a big change.
Nandita Bajaj (26:43):
That is incredible news, Jay. Congratulations. It is so thrilling at so many levels. Number one, the fact that you are clearly filling a big gap in our community, really bringing representation to our community in matters of life and death, in matters of how we lead our lives, how we find fulfillment, who we trust, et cetera, but also really changing the conversation in the financial and economic communities, and kudos to you for that.
Jay Zigmont (27:16):
We're trying to get the message out there. We're trying to help everybody understand this. This is why I'm talking to any audience I can find, and I really appreciate your support because the bottom line is we're all fighting uphill, but maybe some of these awards and other things are saying we're starting to make some progress.
Nandita Bajaj (27:32):
Yes, indeed. I really appreciate the work you're doing, as I know so many people in our community who are benefiting directly from it. It was a brilliant conversation. Thank you so much.
Jay Zigmont (27:44):
Thanks for having me.
Nandita Bajaj (27:45):
That's all for this edition of Beyond Pronatalism. To share feedback about the show or a particular episode or to share your own story on the podcast, please get in touch with me using the link in the show notes. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us on your favorite podcast platform and share it widely. We couldn't do this work without the support of listeners like you and hope that you will consider a one-time or a recurring donation. Thank you so much again for joining me today as we collectively discover and celebrate the many different pathways to fulfillment beyond pronatalism. This podcast is brought to you by Population Balance, the only nonprofit organization advancing the rights and wellbeing of people, animals, and the planet by confronting pronatalism and other harmful ideologies. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Nandita Bajaj, with the support of my production team, Josh Wild and Alan Ware.
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