Therese Shechter | Joyfully Dismantling the “Womanhood” Script

ChildfreeMarriage

Jul 21

Written By Population Balance

Therese grew up assuming marriage and motherhood were simply part of her future, even though she sensed from early adulthood that neither felt right for her. It wasn't until she was 40, as she became a documentary filmmaker with her first film, I Was a Teenage Feminist, that she realized she was already living a fulfilling life. That awakening led her to examine — with meticulous research and a strong dose humor — the powerful influence of pronatalism in other films, including her most recent documentary, My So-Called Selfish Life.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

Therese Shechter (00:00):
I was approaching 40 and I was having a lot of thoughts about my life. I was single. I had no children. I didn't look like a supermodel. And had I somehow failed at my life because I hadn't hit these benchmarks? I had this realization that I had been worried that I wasn't married, but I never wanted to get married and I was worried that I didn't have children, but I never actually wanted children. This is how your head gets twisted around. And in terms of not looking like a supermodel, I had made my peace with that too. So it was like, dummy, you actually are living the life you wanted.
Nandita Bajaj (00:48):
That was today's guest, feminist filmmaker Therese Shechter. Hi everyone, and thank you for joining me. My name is Nandita Bajaj and I'm the host of Beyond Pronatalism: Finding Fulfillment With or Without Kids, an interview series in which through intimate conversations with people from diverse backgrounds, I explore how they are courageously and creatively navigating pronatalism - the often unspoken pressures to have children, whether from family, friends, or the culture at large. Each episode features a personal story born out of liberated and informed choice about redefining what family means, including being childfree or childless, having biological kids, adopting or fostering children or animals, or creating close-knit communities of friends and loved ones. Hi, and welcome to Beyond Pronatalism, Therese. I cannot tell you how thrilled I am to have you here.
Therese Shechter (01:47):
Thrilled to be here, Nandita.
Nandita Bajaj (01:48):
And Therese, even though we've known each other for almost a decade, both professionally and then more recently as friends, I am so excited about this conversation because despite all of the incredible work you've been doing in making feminist films, we haven't quite gone to the depths of the intimate conversations that we're invited to have on this podcast. And by way of introduction, because you are a public personality, I'll do a professional introduction of you and then I'd love to hear your own introduction. So Therese Shechter makes feminist documentaries about the lives women are expected to want and the ones they actually choose. And you and I met while you were in the middle of working on your most recent film, My So- Called Selfish Life, and I was kind of in the process of asking the same questions of myself and investigating this ideology of pronatalism.
(02:53):
And though in your film, My So-Called Selfish Life, you do center much of the conversation on a lot of other women, there isn't a huge focus on how you arrived at the decision to not have children. So that's what I'm very excited to delve into today with you and I'll stop there.
Therese Shechter (03:14):
Well, I grew up in a lovely family that I'm still very close to in Toronto. I ended up spending over three decades in the US in my professional life and moved back to Toronto a few years ago to be closer to my family that I love. I am 64 years old. When I say this, I don't understand the words I'm saying, but it's true. So I'm 64, I'm married. I've made a series of films. As you say, they're feminist films, but I think I should back up to say that all of my life I wanted to be an artist. And even when people said, Oh, well, what else do you want to do? And I said, No, I want to be an artist. I couldn't actually imagine anything else that I would enjoy doing. My parents wanted me to become a geneticist, which probably would have been a fascinating career, but the idea of sitting in a lab all day was not really very interesting.
(04:11):
Anyway, I ended up going to OCAD, which is a Canadian art college of some prestige. And then I became a graphic designer, art director. At a certain point, I found myself in Chicago working for the Chicago Tribune, which was a really fantastic job. But somewhere in the middle of that time in Chicago, I decided I wanted to go to film school. And that came about because I had broken up a very serious relationship. So I was single again and I thought, I can do anything I want with my life. I am free. What do I want to do? And this idea popped into my head that I wanted to go to film school. So I went back to school part-time while I was working at the Tribune. I used my vacation time to shoot my student film projects and one thing led to another and I ended up being offered an internship in New York.
(05:03):
So I took a four-month leave of absence from my job. And so I moved to New York for four months. And somewhere halfway through the four months, I realized that I did not want to go back to Chicago, that I loved living in New York, that it was my city, and I wanted to pursue a career in film. And I always say that I don't know where I found this bravery to do such a thing because I had a really good job in Chicago, one that I really liked. I was getting a very nice salary. I had my own condo, but there was no question. So I resigned over the phone and moved back only long enough to pack. So this is the beginning of my film career. I got hired by that company, Tribeca Films, which is Robert De Niro's production company. So I got hired on as an assistant there and it was very Hollywood and very not what I wanted to do.
(05:57):
So I didn't last too long. But somebody I worked with there said, Have you though of volunteering at the Sundance Film Festival? And I said, Oh, is that a thing people can do? And she said, Yeah, you should apply to be a volunteer. It's really fun and you get to see a lot of films, which I did. I got to see unbelievably great documentaries, like different styles, different approaches, different moods. It kind of blew my mind because up until then, I'd never considered documentary as something I wanted to do. So I came back from Sundance after two weeks and said, I want to make documentaries. This is what I want to do. This route is so circuitous. I mean, this is life. And I actually took a 12-week workshop on documentary filmmaking that a friend of mine was also doing. And I started working on my first documentary, which is I Was a Teenage Feminist, which was basically we just had to write a proposal.
(06:53):
So we went through all the steps of writing a proposal for a film that we were never expected to make, except halfway through that workshop, the filmmaker who was leading it said, You're going to make this film, right? And I was like, No, I'm just doing the exercise. I was approaching 40 and I was having a lot of thoughts about my life. I was single. I had no children. I didn't look like a supermodel. And had I somehow failed at my life because I hadn't hit these benchmarks and I didn't actually want kids, but culture is so strong. So these are the things going through my head. And basically my proposal had to do with being a huge feminist when I was 13 inspired by Free to Be You and Me, which some people I hope have seen or heard. And what happened to that 13-year-old feminist?
(07:44):
How did I get here? And feeling not empowered, feeling confused and feeling really frustrated with the world. So he said, No, here, take my camera, go interview someone. This is Macky Alston who really became a wonderful mentor. And the first person I interviewed was my mother. I was going home for a visit and she was in the kitchen making matzo balls. Yes, it was right before Passover. And my mother has always been a feminist role model for me, but she never really called herself a feminist. She just acted like one. And I interviewed her about feminism and about her own past, and that ended up being kind of a backbone for I Was a Teenage Feminist. And yeah, and I made my first documentary.
Nandita Bajaj (08:30):
That is so cool that you were basically around 40 when you switched careers and went into this filmmaking career and the epiphanies that you were having that led you to that. What were some of the norms and traditions within your family growing up that gave you the confidence to know that you could be an independent person and what were some of the messages you were receiving as you were growing up?
Therese Shechter (08:56):
So as I was growing up, I had a wonderful family. And part of that was that they really didn't impose what they thought I should do. My parents were always just, We trust you. And my mother was a feminist. I mean, she was a trained classical pianist. She had gotten her advanced degree in music. She used to get so angry when the credit card companies sent her a credit card with my father's name on it as they used to do. She would write them letters, send it back saying, That's not my name. So she'd always had a career. She always worked. And again, my father was a really sweet guy and also really encouraged me. But I was always playing this tug of war with what I wanted to do and what the world around me told me I should do always. And it confused me.
(09:48):
I was always very confused. I would watch TV. I watched way too much TV as a child and I would see these nuclear families like the Brady Bunch, terrible, terrible influence. Here's this very well-scrubbed white California family and the girls were going on dates in high school. Did I ever go on a date in high school? Not so much.
Nandita Bajaj (10:11):
You and I both.
Therese Shechter (10:13):
So there were all these things around me that were kind of reinforcing a certain kind of life that I as a young woman should aspire to. And at the same time, I also deep down knew that I wasn't sure that was the life I wanted. And much of my adult life has been that tug of war between part of me really wanting to fit in and wanting to do these things that I had been told over and over and over again were the right things for me to do. And also knowing that I didn't really want to do them. And I was always a really smart kid. People kept saying, Don't act so smart because the boys don't like it. And I'm like, No, I want to do well in school and I'm smarter than most of the boys in my school. And I felt like just confusing, confusing.
(10:59):
So what happened when I was 13 was this work of feminist art called Free to Be You and Me, which was a TV show, like a special. And there was also an album. It was something Marlo Thomas created and it was funded by the Ms. Foundation. And it was just skits and songs and animations that were all reinforcing this idea of you should be who you want to be. You're allowed. Here's permission to be whoever you want to be. And it was funny, but also there was one really famous thing in it. Rosie Greer, who was a very famous football player at the time, sang a song called It's All Right to Cry, which was aimed at the boys. So for me, my favorite thing on Free to Be You and Me was the story of Atalanta. This ended up being a part of, I was a Teenage Feminist actually because I go through that sort of superhero origin story of my own, but it was about this princess.
(11:53):
It was animated about this princess who lived in a castle with her father and he wanted her to get married already. And she said, I'm not sure if I want to get married. I want to look through my telescope and explore new lands. And he said, Yeah, okay, but you're getting married and I'm going to have a road race, a running race and invite all the young men from the area and whoever comes in first in the race will be your future husband.
Nandita Bajaj (12:19):
Reasonable criteria.
Therese Shechter (12:20):
Very reasonable. Yeah, very reasonable. This is actually a Greek myth that the good feminists of Free to Be You and Me rewrote the ending of. So she said, Okay, fine, but I am going to run the race also. And if I win, I don't have to marry anybody you want me to marry. And so they have the race. There's one guy who they call Young John, and Young John actually seems like a good guy and he kind of ties across the finish line with her, but they were really enjoying racing against one another. They were really having fun. So of course the king says, Well, young John, you came closest to winning, so you may marry my daughter. And young John, and honestly, every time I talk about the ending of this thing, I get very emotional. He says, I would never dream of marrying your daughter if she doesn't want to get married, but I would really like to be her friend. And they become friends and spend a lot of time together.
(13:21):
And then one day young John gets on a ship to explore the world across the seas and she gets on her beautiful horse to go to other lands. And the ending is we don't know if they ever saw each other again, but we know they both lived happily ever after.
Nandita Bajaj (13:38):
Oh, that's so cool. Oh my God.
Therese Shechter (13:42):
I could start like weeping right now. And even now I'm 64, I've lived a life. I'm very happy. And I still remember how I felt like my brain exploded. I was like, wait, you can live happily ever after without getting married. Really? Wow. It changed my life. Honestly, it just changed my life. And so I decided that's when I became a feminist. Now, I wasn't out marching. I was 13 and I was going to a very traditional school, but I knew what was going on inside me. And every time I do a college visit or a Q&A or something, I always mention it and I always urge these college students to just go find it and watch it because I think it still speaks to a part of us that needs to be released, released from the constraints of whatever our society thinks you should be doing.
Nandita Bajaj (14:38):
Yeah, thank you so much. That provides so much context for who I know you to be today. And of course, that was a turning point in your life that allowed you this confidence that there were alternatives to what you were being presented by culture. And as you grow older and are still being bombarded by these cultural messages, how are you navigating these pressures in your 30s?
Therese Shechter (15:06):
In my 20s and 30s, I was just sort of a confused person because there was a very strong part of me that wanted to fit in. And especially because I was sort of a loner, I don't have any high school memories like having dates or going to the prom. I did go to the prom, but my date was gay, which is about right actually. I've met so many, so many women who grew up a lot like I did. They're the people I want to know. But since then I've realized that I wasn't ever actually alone, but we didn't have this thing called the internet or social media. And my high school was very, all the guys were trying to get into dental school or something and the girls were trying to marry dentists. And so I was just confused and there was this battle going on between me getting crushes on guys and generally guys not really being that interested.
(15:54):
But I feel like I was lucky in that way because I didn't end up in a relationship that would've been really wrong for me. So again, I feel like I had this sort of inner knowledge that I would occasionally tap into, which is you should just be who you are and 95% of the guys will not be interested and that's fine because you don't want to be with them anyway. So it was sort of like a little weeding out of people that wouldn't have been good for me. And by the time I turned 40, I had this realization that I had been worried that I wasn't married, but I never wanted to get married. And I was worried that I didn't have children, but I never actually wanted children. This is how your head gets twisted around. And in terms of not looking like a supermodel, I had made my peace with that too. So it was like, dummy, you actually are living the life you wanted.
Nandita Bajaj (16:48):
Yes. Right.
Therese Shechter (16:49):
And that's kind of what inspired I Was a Teenage Feminist because I really wanted to know what had happened to the feminist movement since I had been a teenager. And this was very early 2000s and we didn't have feminist media yet. We didn't have all those blogs. We didn't have Beyonce dancing in front of a huge sign that said feminist. People didn't want me to make this film. It was still like an F word and there was still, I'm sure this still endures, but all of the stereotypes like you're lesbian with hairy legs and you hate men and blah, blah, blah. And there were people who were like, Why are you making that film? And I'm like, The fact that you're upset that I'm making this film is a really good reason to make the film. And so the next film I made was called How to Lose Your Virginity, which came about during the abstinence until marriage programs in the US and how we were just lying to teenagers every single day with our tax dollars funding it.
(17:46):
But it was also tied into what does it mean to be a virgin or not a virgin? Why do we buy into these stories about what those things mean? And the personal aspect of that one was, I'm making air quotes again, I didn't "lose" my virginity till I was 23, partly because I thought someone needed to deserve this. So it weaves in my own feelings about that stuff. Virginity doesn't exist. It's not a thing. There's no medical definition for it. It's just a construct that like many constructs was created to control women. But I was always confused about why did I think it was such a big deal? Why do we still treat women in a certain way or young women? What are these myths, misogyny? Looking back now, I feel like everything I've done is the same. It's not the same film, but it's the same feeling.
Nandita Bajaj (18:36):
Yes. That is such a profound point that you've made. And I think so many people, especially women, spend most of their lives trying to live up to the expectations of others, especially other men and finding validation by the acceptance of those men. And it's a gift to not fit in at younger ages in those kind of traditional ways because it makes us comfortable not trying to define ourselves by what culture expects of us. And then it's like, Well, it doesn't matter anyway, so might as well do what I want. And then it ends up kind of bringing you to higher and higher, I think, self-awareness. And then you eventually did get married, but you have maintained your childfree status. What were some of the things leading up to that decision and what was the conversation like with your partner, now husband about the decision to have or not have children?
Therese Shechter (19:36):
Well, we were both 47 when we got married and we had had plenty of time to figure out who we were before we met. And I've never really had a moment where I actually made a conscious decision not to have children. It's just who I was from the very beginning. So the idea of when did you choose not to have children? Well, I never chose not to have children. I just didn't want to have children. There is one moment in my 30s that I'm just going to mention. I was in a very serious relationship in my 30s and my boyfriend at the time every once in a while mentioned kids. And at that time I did not have the language to say I don't want children. And I kept saying things like, Oh, I don't think I'd be a very good mother. He'd say, No, you'd be a great mother. And I'm like, Eh, I don't really think so.
(20:20):
And I realized that I didn't have the words for it. And then all of our friends started getting married and having children. And that's when my brain kind of fried and it was like, Oh no, I have to get married and have children. Not because I wanted children, but I did want to be like all my friends. It's the sociological clock, not the biological clock. So I've only had two really serious long-term relationships, one in my 30s and then when I met my husband in my 40s. And by then I wasn't looking for a husband. I mean, I liked my life. It was good. And I had good friends and I was living in New York and I had already made one film and was working on the second documentary. And I was traveling to Turkey all the time. I had an apartment in Turkey in Istanbul.
(21:05):
So I was very, very happy with my life and I basically just did whatever I wanted and I just didn't care what people thought. I am exactly where I wanted to be when I was 13. Okay. So yeah, when we met, we started dating. I thought he was a really nice guy. When it seemed like things were getting more serious, I did say to him, You should probably know that I've never wanted children and I still don't want children. And at the time he was like, Okay. We were older, so that ship has kind of sailed. When I said I didn't want children, he said, Oh, but adoption's always an option. And I'm like, No, I do not want children of any form. Doesn't matter how they get here. Don't want them. And he was like, Okay, yeah, thanks for telling me. And amazingly at our wedding, friends of my parents asked, So are you thinking about having children now? I'm like, No.
(22:02):
They're from another time. But I found out later when I was already working on My So-Called Selfish Life and I was doing some writing for different magazines. And again, this is kind of before magazines were writing stories about people who didn't want children. This was Real Simple, I think, was the magazine. But I had convinced them to let me write something about growing up and not wanting kids. I had done a draft and I showed it to my husband and I said, Well, what do you think? And he said, Well, you say that I didn't want children, but that's not really true. I'm like, Oh, it's really weird. I was like, You did want children? And he said, No, no. I wanted to be with you. So whatever you wanted, that's what I would do. And if I had met someone who I felt the same way about who did want children, I probably would've had children. I'm like, Wow. And then I felt kind of bad because I had misunderstood him for several years.
(22:56):
So I don't think it was a big deal to him, but yeah, I was like, Oh, I don't think I heard you correctly back when we were dating. But his main point was I wanted to be with you and that was the most important thing, which is lovely, which is why I allowed him to become my husband. Yes, and he's still lovely and super supportive. We met online before the apps on a dating site and I was pretty much not paying for it anymore because it had been kind of a soul-crushing experience as many people say. He had done a search for Jewish vegetarian feminists. That was his search. And he came up with two people, me and another woman. And actually that reminds me that I used to never put the word feminist on my dating profile ever. And I even had a date with somebody where I was in the throes of making I Was a Teenage Feminist probably, and I used the term patriarchy and I'm like, Oh, well, okay, it's all over now. Yes, I said patriarchy. I was very self-conscious about it, telling people what I was working on, everything. But then shortly before my husband found me online, I added feminists to my profile. I mean, who knows all of the potential dates with other people searching for feminists, but I don't know. I think he's a unicorn to be perfectly honest.
Nandita Bajaj (24:18):
But it also kind of reinforces your point about weeding people out who are allergic to a huge part of our identities. We shouldn't have to hide.
Therese Shechter (24:30):
Yeah. That was the thing. Again, sort of this realization, this sort of duh moment is like, if you put feminists in your profile, then you will only get people who think that's okay.
Nandita Bajaj (24:40):
Yes. And I really appreciated what you said about choosing to not have children was never really a decision that you needed to make one way or another. It was just obvious. And it reminded me of this quote, It's by Gloria Steinem, and it goes, Everybody with a wound doesn't have to have a child any more than everybody with vocal chords has to be an opera singer. I always love it because it exposes the pervasiveness of pronatalism. And your most recent film, My So-Called Selfish Life, is a fantastic expose of the harmful ideology of pronatalism. And it is expressed through the lens of people specifically who chose not to have children. And I'd love to hear more about what inspired you to make the film.
Therese Shechter (25:33):
There were a few things that kind of came together to make me feel like this was the next film I had to make. The first was I went through menopause. And when I went through menopause, I had this revelation, I guess. I could see my arc of fertility. I could see the time from when I got my first period to when I blessedly stopped getting my period. And I could see this arc and it made me think about how I had 38 years of, I assume, fertility. What did I do with it? Nothing. I did nothing.
Nandita Bajaj (26:10):
What a waste.
Therese Shechter (26:11):
What a waste. Yeah. I mean, I was going through these ideas in my head about is my purpose really on this earth to make children? And if so, have I completely squandered the one thing that the world asks of me? I mean, I didn't have any doubts that I had done the right thing, but it was an intellectual exercise that really made me think about the idea that our one worth in the world is to have babies. So that was the first thing that got me thinking. And when I was thinking of making this film before I started, I didn't know that much about childfree lives beyond my own in the very early days. And I thought, I'm going to send out a survey to people and I'm hoping some people will respond and tell me about what their lives are like and their challenges and their joys and things like that.
(27:00):
So I created this very non-scientific survey, posted it once on Facebook. Within a week I got 1900 responses. And then within the next week I got another 1900 responses. And apparently it had been picked up by all the childfree blogs and Reddit and everyone else in the universe. It's the only thing I've ever done that went viral. But as I was looking through these responses, which were coming in really fast and furious, I very quickly learned about how many ways people express this idea of not having children and why and how they feel about it and what people have said to them. And it spanned race, it spanned gender, mostly women. And it spanned sexuality. It spanned all the demographics. So I got very excited just by the information, but also thinking, Huh, maybe this is a film people will want to watch. And then the last part of that was my very dear friend, Anne Kingston, who is in the film, she's a journalist, she has been begging me to make this film since 2009.
(28:05):
And I was working on another film at the time, but she was sort of delightfully relentless on how I should make the film. And I should say I'm speaking about her in first person, but she passed away while we were making the film. I'm pretty sad that she never got to see the finished product, but she was a huge inspiration in this project. She wrote articles about childfree people before other people had and got so much hate mail. She was just like, I have written about politics. I've written about all of these things. This is what I get the most hate mail from talking about people who don't want children. And so I was going to make a film about the shit we get for deciding not to have children socially. And I kept bumping into this thing called pronatalism. And at some point I was like, Oh, this is the key to everything.
(28:56):
This concept of pronatalism unlocks this whole story. And so commentary on pronatalism kind of runs through the whole film. And we have two really important segments in the film to explain pronatalism. The first one is more like everyday pronatalism, like what your parents say to you to have children or what you see in pop culture. We have a sequence of little clips from pregnancy test commercials and they're all positive and they're all hugging and crying and happy, but most people are happy not to be pregnant. And it's another facet of pronatalism that we're not allowed to see that commercial. It's vanishingly rare. We can only see the happy to be pregnant commercials. And then much later in the film after people have absorbed a lot more information, we look at pronatalism from a larger sort of institutional standpoint. And we talk about the American history of eugenics movement, forced sterilization.
(29:50):
The fact that it was so appealing to the Nazis, they picked up the American ideas. And I don't think people were expecting that part because it's kind of heavy. It's serious and I think it kind of comes as a bit of a surprise when it comes, but I like it and I like that it's serious. Well, most of the film is quite funny. So that's how we try to relate it to fertility rates. We relate it to the biological clock. All of these things when you dig under the surface of all the myths about having or not having children, every road leads back to pronatalism.
Nandita Bajaj (30:25):
Yes. And now that you are kind of on the other side of your reproductive journey, where are you at with this exploration, this work and your own life as a childfree woman in a childfree relationship? What does life look like today?
Therese Shechter (30:42):
Life is wonderful. I haven't really had a moment where I wished I had children. I'm really fortunate to be living the life that I wanted to live. It's a really important and special thing to say, this is how I want to live my life, and then to be able to do it. And I've met a lot of wonderful people through making this film, especially you, Nandita, and many others who have changed my thinking about a lot of things too.
Nandita Bajaj (31:13):
That sounds amazing to be able to live the life you've always wanted to live. And how many people have the privilege to say that, right? And it shouldn't be a privilege. It should be something that's available to people, especially when it comes to our reproductive lives. I'm really grateful for your work, Therese, and it was such a delight chatting with you today and it's always a delight chatting with you. And I'm so grateful that you joined me today. Thanks so much for being here.
Therese Shechter (31:40):
Always my absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Nandita Bajaj (31:43):
That's all for this edition of Beyond Pronatalism. To share feedback about the show or a particular episode or to share your own story on the podcast, please get in touch with me using the link in the show notes. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us on your favorite podcast platform and share it widely. We couldn't do this work without the support of listeners like you and hope that you will consider a one-time or a recurring donation. Thank you so much again for joining me today as we collectively discover and celebrate the many different pathways to fulfillment beyond pronatalism. This podcast is brought to you by Population Balance, the only nonprofit organization advancing the rights and wellbeing of people, animals, and the planet by confronting pronatalism and other harmful ideologies. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Nandita Bajaj, with the support of my production team, Josh Wild and Alan Ware.