Nathan | Being Childfree: The Personal is Political

ChildfreeAnimal RightsOverpopulation

Jul 7

Written By Population Balance

Nathan knew from a young age that he never wanted children, a resolve that only got stronger as he woke up to pronatalism in college. Now in his late 30s and in a committed childfree relationship, Nathan values the freedom that being childfree allows him — from reflecting in solitude and going on long bike rides with his partner, to enriching his political awareness and writing about social justice and animal rights.

Nathan (00:00):
I've never wanted kids. I've been childfree this far and I enjoy it. And when it comes to having kids, I've come to realize the personal choices we make are related to large scale social structures and vice versa. And the choices you make matter and they matter for others. So because I don't have kids, it very much allows me to be much more politically oriented and politically involved and allows me to write and to think through thoughts. And I think getting our minds right is a big part of living life and it's a big part of how we are as political beings is we want to have an idea of what kind of world we want to live in. It's a major component of who I am now and it's a major component of being childfree.
Nandita Bajaj (00:52):
That was today's guest, Nathan. Hi everyone and thank you for joining me. My name is Nandita Bajaj and I'm the host of Beyond Pronatalism: Finding Fulfillment With Or Without Kids, an interview series in which through intimate conversations with people from diverse backgrounds, I explore how they are courageously and creatively navigating pronatalism - the often unspoken pressures to have children, whether from family, friends, or the culture at large. Each episode features a personal story born out of liberated and informed choice about redefining what family means, including being childfree or childless, having biological kids, adopting or fostering children or animals, or creating close-knit communities of friends and loved ones. Hi, and welcome to the Beyond ProNatalism podcast, Nathan. It is wonderful having you here.
Nathan (01:48):
Hi, Nandita. Yes, thank you for having me. It's also wonderful to be here. It's so great to have a platform like this where we can talk so openly about a topic like this.
Nandita Bajaj (01:57):
Yes, I agree. And you and I have many shared interests in work around animal rights and environmental ethics and just looking at the issues around how human overpopulation and overconsumption impact these different areas of our interest. So I'm sure that our conversation will take us to those different areas today. So Nathan, we can start with a brief introduction. Can you share a little bit about yourself with our listeners?
Nathan (02:30):
Yeah. So I guess to start, I am 38 years old. I live in Lansing, Michigan. That's United States. I grew up in Warren, Michigan, so I've always been pretty local here. I am a full-time math tutor at a community college. I am childfree by choice, but I've been that way forever. I've long known or suspected that would be the case. So even when I was younger, kids were never a concern for me. I am in a relationship, a long-term relationship. It's 13 years now and have always have been on the same page regarding children and in particular not having them.
Nandita Bajaj (03:10):
Wonderful. You said you've stayed fairly local within the community in which you grew up in Michigan. Can you talk a little bit about what the expectations were from your family when you were growing up and also generally from culture around the notion of having kids and creating a quote unquote family?
Nathan (03:31):
Yeah. So in thinking back, I don't think there were expectations from my family. I don't remember that being an issue. So I remember personally when I was young, just kind of assuming that I would have kids at some point, but it was never a feeling of something I wanted. So I do remember growing up with this notion of like everybody has kids, but I never felt like I should or needed to. I just kind of felt like it would happen. It was just often more passing thoughts because I think it's so normalized of, yeah, that'll probably happen someday, but that was never followed by a feeling of that's a good thing. And that was not pushed. I don't remember my parents really pushing that. I remember being pressured to think about a career and a job and to make money more than being married or having kids.
(04:22):
Those sorts of pressures definitely stand out from teachers or like friends of the family, counselors or professors and whatnot. They were always focused on that aspect of the future, but it was more, I feel like just in this sort of social inertia where this idea of you just kind of will fall into the streamline of mainstream society and kind of do what everyone else does. So I was always one to question others and to question the status quo. And so when I realized I was having these feelings about being subtly and indirectly pressured to just kind of do what everyone else does, that I began to question that. When I got to college, that's when people started talking about kids. And so other people's conversations would also not pressure me, but just kind of realize that that was all around and that was the world I was going into and people didn't think like I did, that they were going to do what everyone else did.
(05:21):
But I also got the sense that they did not think these things through, that they were just kind of falling in line. And so the more I got subtly pressured, the more I questioned it and the more I wanted to resist it. So my choice to be childfree is certainly not out of pure rebellion. It's not just because others want me to or something that I don't want to, but it just makes me feel more secure in my choice because I feel like I'm doing things for me and not just because. I do feel a lot of other people make decisions for no real reason other than that pressure.
Nandita Bajaj (05:54):
Yeah. So well said. I appreciate you said you both kind of were following what you innately knew but also were questioning the dominant narrative of you have to have kids and you have to be married and you have to have a certain job. When did you clearly know or make a decision to yourself that this was not happening for you? Was that around college?
Nathan (06:20):
Yeah, it would've been around college, but it's a good question because when you ask it, it makes me realize I don't know exactly because I think that feeling was in a sense always just kind of there is I never actually wanted kids. I had a partner before my current partner who also did not want kids and I think that's when I was like really introduced to it as, oh, here's another person I'm in a relationship with, I could be in a long-term relationship with and they don't want it either. And when they say that, that feels good. That's how I would like to envision my future. So I mean in college to me, just the way I was and the way I felt and thought, kids were not on my mind at all. I wasn't like everybody else. A lot of other kids in college at that point were talking about having families after college and whatnot and that was always very off-putting to me.
(07:09):
And then in grad school it was just even less on my mind. And so I think just kind of after that point is probably when I really came to it and thought I've never wanted kids. I've been childfree this far and I enjoy it. I'm not going to have any.
Nandita Bajaj (07:23):
That's very cool that a conversation with one other person, your previous partner, was a source of affirmation for you and that maybe kind of brought a level of confidence in your decision that maybe was subtly always there, but it brought to the forefront that you could feel comfortable with. And so as you finished your graduate school and kept this resolve that you weren't going to have children, were you openly sharing this with other people? And if so, what kind of responses were you receiving?
Nathan (08:00):
Yeah. So it wasn't something I really talked to people about because it was never on my mind. It was never like central, I don't think to any conversation with other people. It's as if the choice really never existed. I remember reading somewhere in some book, I think it was an anthropologist which said that if people were to have grown up in isolation on an island, the last thing we would think about is having kids, that that inclination is just not an actual natural part or at least consciously part of us, part of our thoughts. And when I think about that, that just resonates with me because I feel like that's how I've lived my life. That has just never been a real thought to me. So it hasn't come up much. I don't bring it up because I think it also tends to be a conversation stopper.
(08:47):
Sometimes people ask me if I have kids and when I say no, I feel like they were expecting a yes and they had follow-up questions ready to go and all of a sudden it's a no and they don't know what to say. So that's kind of interesting to watch people like that and then think about how entrapped they are in that mentality of, Oh, this person, of course, has them too. They're of age, they got a career, whatever, they must have kids, but I don't. And so I think other people don't know how to handle it, but usually for me, that stops it. I don't need to go further from there because they stop.
Nandita Bajaj (09:22):
Yeah, really true. And I really appreciate the real lack of concern that you had around this issue, that it was such a non-issue that you never even felt like you needed to bring it up. It really should be that way in terms of our social conversations, in the same way that if somebody asked me about college football and how often I think about pursuing a career in that, my answer would be never. It's not in my awareness. Why would you ask me that? In the same way a thousand other hobbies and skills and interests are not part of my awareness because it's just not a priority for me. Why does having kids concern people so much, especially when it's somebody else's life? And then when you got into a relationship with your current partner, did you both have a conversation in your relationship about this?
Nathan (10:21):
Yeah, we did at some point. I don't remember when that was. It was a while ago now. We both just kind of felt the same and when it came up we were like, Oh good, that's about it. We've not revisited it per se as in re-thought it, but really periodically we just come back to and talk about how thankful we are that we are childfree and intentionally. So it's never been up for re-debate or re-discussion. And I think even largely before, before we were together as individuals, I think she largely felt the same way I did in that it was not either not a concern or certainly not a priority, not a big deal. I think just kind of over time, both of us came to this concrete realization of, yeah, that's just not something we want and we are thankful for over and over again.
Nandita Bajaj (11:09):
Right. Yes. And probably because it wasn't a priority for either one of you, maybe it's something that you picked up early on in the relationship that there were other things that were kind of attracting you to each other, other values, because I know there have been relationships where there's an assumption that it won't happen and people haven't had the conversation, but then one person springs it on the other that of course it's going to happen. And it creates all sorts of tensions and problems and sometimes ultimately leads to a breakup or a resentment for the other person who had to compromise and have a child.
Nathan (11:50):
That's a good perspective on it. So we are both like what you could call introverts in terms of personality and that means we enjoy time to ourselves. So not only do we enjoy time together, but so not mediated by a child, which would be pretty constant and therefore not really about us as a couple, but it would be about the child or maybe about all three of us, but that's different. That's a whole different dynamic than just two adults being together and enjoying being together. So I think that's something we enjoy and valued, but as well as our own separate time. We enjoy being on our own, having our own time, pursue our individual hobbies and interests. And I think we also just liked the general freedom that not having a kid gives that we together can go places or just not worry about having a sitter or anything like that. I think it's those sorts of similarities that maybe were generally unspoken but somehow maybe felt between us it was clear enough and it's certainly clear now.
Nandita Bajaj (12:55):
That makes a lot of sense. And speaking about freedom, let's go into that a bit and if you can share broadly what are the kinds of things and passions that you are able to pursue as a result of your chosen life path of being childfree?
Nathan (13:15):
One is just free time. I like having free time. I get the sense that parents largely have to obsess over their kids and I just don't like that idea. I like having free time. I like being able to relax. I like being able to essentially putter around my yard and just do these little tasks that might seem or even be meaningless in the scheme of things, but they're really relaxing, but those are good for like clearing the mind and thinking and having that time to yourself and outside and just kind of being present in the moment. That's a big thing that I really value, finding meaning in the everyday tasks and I feel like that would get lost with having a kid. So free time for me is a big one that's kind of number one, but we also like, so my partner and I like to bike.
(14:06):
We like to go on bike trails and then we can bike as long as short as we want. Again, when I think about kids, I feel like they would just kind of get in the way and probably slow things down. We might not be able to go as far for various reasons and we don't need a sitter. We don't need to like plan for that the same way and we can just make our own bike trip as we go. So that kind of thing is something that's more recent for us in the last few years, but it's amazingly fulfilling for me. I didn't know it would be like that, but it is something I really like to do. So something else is I do write and publish and that is something that I think would be harder, a lot harder with having a kid. And I think about that all the time when I try to write something and there's a deadline or I'm just trying to think through something and it's difficult and I just think, man, if I was interrupted by other obligations within my household, that would be problematic.
(15:04):
And so those are moments I then come back to being thankful that that's not the situation. And so I am more generally interested in like social justice concerns, but animal rights or animal liberation being a fundamental one of those and trying to essentially convince people of certain ways of thought or certain modes of living that I think help with social justice issues in general. Regarding that, I read a book recently called False Idols by Kurt Warner. That is about how basically various aspects of society distract us from having a political awareness, from being politically minded and politically oriented. Basically everything in society distracts us from being politically aware and politically engaged. So one thing Warner does not include in that book I realized is having children and I actually think that would be a major distraction from political life. I don't know a single instance where someone having a kid made them more politically involved.
(16:02):
I don't think I have ever come across that, hearing it, any direct conversations, overhearing it or reading about that. I'm sure it exists, but I just have not come across it. It's completely in the opposite direction. So that I view as very problematic because I don't have kids. It very much allows me to be much more politically oriented, a little bit politically involved and allows me to write and to think through thoughts. I think getting our minds right is a big part of living life and it's a big part of how we are as political beings is we want to have an idea of what kind of world we want to live in. So if we don't have time to think about that and to think for ourselves about that and to think about what kind of societies we have and organizations we have and relations we have and why they are that way and all that kind of stuff, that's a big problem.
(16:53):
So I have been able to think about and be involved in those spaces. It's a major component of who I am now and it's a major component of being childfree. Now again, I know there are people, lots of people who have kids and do these sorts of things and I don't know. Again, I don't know what it's like to have that experience. I guess there's ways of doing it, but I can't imagine doing it at least not nearly as well.
Nandita Bajaj (17:18):
I appreciate that point so much that you made, Nathan, about the political life. And I think as you say, having kids is and can be a huge distraction for not only being active, but also even realizing the larger politics at play, including the politics of the state that pushes us into having kids. And one of the things that happens, and another guest on our podcast, Luke, has previously spoken about, when you have kids, regardless of your politics, no matter how radical you think you are as a political activist, you are forced to engage in compromising systems, school system, the real estate home system where you are located, what kind of things you purchase, the consumerism compromises that you have to make to ensure your child doesn't feel left out, the kinds of things you read, you watch, where you go, the travel. And so much of our life then in order to be a good parent, in order to ensure that the child has their desires and needs met, come with a set of compromises that take you further and further away from your political radicalness that you as a person may have had. Yeah, that's really, really helpful. I wonder if there's anything else you'd like to discuss that we haven't touched on yet.
Nathan (18:48):
I guess I just want to relay a little personal story of just the other day, a couple days ago, we are in a nearby city, my partner and I, and we were just walking around a lake. We ended up passing a family, I assume, that they're mother and father and they had two kids. But I just remember just kind of overhearing their conversation. It was between the parents and the kids, but everything was just about the kids, every single thing, and it was just constant conversation. And I just thought that's my imagination of what it is like to have kids. And here's an example. And I just think as I pass them, how nice would it be to be able to talk and think about other things? And so I don't want to across the board just denigrate having kids because I want to be totally open to the fact that I don't have them so I don't know that.
(19:38):
And I'm not against kids. I don't dislike kids. I think I also want to be clear about that. I've spent time with kids, with young kids and babies even. And I often find that enjoyable. But one of the most enjoyable parts is that I get to leave and I don't have to take the kid with me and that's what I realize that I like about spending time with kids is that they're not mine. They're not my responsibility twenty four seven for an untold amount of years, easily the rest of one's life. And I just don't like that thought. I like more variety in my life, more opportunities. And so that's one aspect. But just to have to talk with your kids about like, to me, again, to me, I don't want to offend people here about the most boring things, about like which kids' books they read or which toys they played with, which stuffed animals their favorite.
(20:30):
Those are not conversations for me and I can get how some people would find that fulfilling and whatnot, but it's not at all for me and I know that and I've always known that. But it's not just that. What I've come to realize is that the personal is political first of all. The personal choices we make are related to large scale social structures and vice versa. So the choices you make matter and they matter for others. So when it comes to having kids, to me now I've come to realize there's every reason not to have them. I mean, you can never have a child for the sake of the child, first of all and foremost. That's an impossibility. So that's just ruled out. You can have one for yourself, but there's a lot of things like you've talked about and we've talked about that you will compromise on or give up because of it.
(21:19):
So there's that, but are you sure that's something you really want? But then there are things like environmental reasons. There are reasons like there are kids who exist that need families, that need parents and that's something I can't get over. So adopting is something I would not rule out 100%, but I still don't think that's quite for me, but it's something I do very much promote and support. I can't imagine having a kid these days. I would feel so sad for them. That's the word. It's not even worried about them. I don't think to me there wouldn't be a worry. To me, I would just assume my child's life is going to get bad. And then so for that, I would feel very sad and I would find it hard to enjoy having a child. I would find it hard to enjoy finding pleasure in any accomplishment my child made because I would just think about what's awaiting them in their future.
(22:18):
So that's a big thing now that maybe didn't quite exist so much, at least not in the potential consciousness 20 years ago, but that's just what I think of these days as well. To me, it's an act of harm and I couldn't do that. I just can't. So there's just all sorts of reasons. And there's talk of like, which I think is very real talk of at least the United States government, probably a lot of governments promoting natalist policies essentially to create a future army and that to me is repulsive as well. And so by not having kids, you can resist things like growthism and militarism and other environmental harms and whatnot. So to me, this is a huge issue that touches everything and there's just every reason not to at least create a child.
Nandita Bajaj (23:07):
Such valuable points, Nathan. Yes, I think the almost complete absence of concern for children in reproductive rights discourse is really, really disappointing. We talk so much about the rights of parents to have or not have children, but as you said, having children should always be an informed and responsible decision. But today, especially given everything we know, it is not going to turn out great for children born today or in the future. And so anyone with a privilege of choice, I think it is a very important and strong message for them to consider these ethical implications very, very deeply. I'm so grateful to you for this conversation and also the great work that you're doing around social justice, which includes animals and it has been a pleasure working with you over the last few years and I look forward to continuing collaborations together. Thank you for such an inspirational conversation today.
Nathan (24:09):
You're welcome. I'm glad you found it useful and interesting. And yeah, I value our connection as well very much.
Nandita Bajaj (24:16):
Thank you, Nathan. That's all for this edition of Beyond Pronatalism. To share feedback about the show or a particular episode or to share your own story on the podcast, please get in touch with me using the link in the show notes. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us on your favorite podcast platform and share it widely. We couldn't do this work without the support of listeners like you and hope that you will consider a one-time or a recurring donation. Thank you so much again for joining me today as we collectively discover and celebrate the many different pathways to fulfillment beyond pronatalism. This podcast is brought to you by Population Balance, the only nonprofit organization advancing the rights and wellbeing of people, animals and the planet by confronting pronatalism and other harmful ideologies. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Nandita Bajaj, with the support of my production team, Josh Wild and Alan Ware.