Miriam was raised in France in an emotionally demanding family dynamic, a product of her mother’s poor mental health and her parents’ unhappy marriage. As the oldest daughter, she felt responsible for her younger sisters as well as her parents’ emotional wellbeing. At 20, a conversation with her ecologically-minded, childfree partner helped her realize, with a great sense of relief, that she didn’t have to become a mother and follow the life script she was raised with. Now a junior doctor in southern Germany, Miriam happily embraces the freedom and possibilities of her childfree life.
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
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Miriam (00:00):
I would say that my parents were and are in an unhappy marriage. They are not fulfilled. And in my opinion, they had us to find a meaning in their life. So I felt that I had to achieve the emotional wellbeing of my parents and also to be a role model for my sisters. And I think some reasons why I don't want children are related to my childhood. But at the same time, when I understood that I didn't have to have any children, immediately I felt such a relief, like a very heavy burden fell off my shoulders. And I think it was one of the best things that happened in my life.
Nandita Bajaj (00:55):
That was today's guest, Miriam. Hi everyone, and thank you for joining me. My name is Nandita Bajaj and I'm the host of Beyond Pronatalism: Finding Fulfillment With or Without Kids, an interview series in which through intimate conversations with people from diverse backgrounds, I explore how they are courageously and creatively navigating pronatalism - the often unspoken pressures to have children, whether from family, friends, or the culture at large. Each episode features a personal story, born out of liberated and informed choice, about redefining what family means, including being childfree or childless, having biological kids, adopting or fostering children or animals, or creating close-knit communities of friends and loved ones. Hi, and welcome to Beyond Pronatalism, Miriam. It is so wonderful to have you.
Miriam (01:51):
Thank you, Nandita. I'm happy to be here.
Nandita Bajaj (01:53):
And I know it took a little bit of courage for you to overcome your fear of joining me on the podcast, and yet you felt compelled to share your story. I'm so glad that some of the other stories that you heard inspired you to speak up, and I am really grateful that you are here with me today. So to begin, Miriam, can you please share a few things about yourself as an introduction?
Miriam (02:22):
Sure. Thank you again for having me here. I was very inspired by some episodes of this podcast, so it's an honor to be in my chair now. And my name is Miriam. I am 28 years old. I live in the south of Germany, and I'm working as a junior doctor. It's been one year now. I was born in France. I grew up in the remote suburban area around Paris, and this is where I spent my life until I turned 17. Then I moved to Germany, and it's been more than 10 years now. Right now, I live in a shared flat, and I have my roommates, and it's been a few years actually, and we are having a very good time. It feels like a chosen family. It's not very typical. They are two sisters and one dog. And yes, that's really life I enjoy, and I actually really don't want to change that lifestyle.
Nandita Bajaj (03:25):
Yeah, sounds like definitely. And so if we backtrack to your upbringing in France, what were the kinds of messages that you were receiving, both from your family and the culture at large? What was family life like for you growing up?
Miriam (03:42):
So since I grew up in the suburban area, we only had families around us, nothing else. And I think many people there just didn't imagine there would be any other possibility than living this kind of life. I was the oldest child with my twin sister and we were four children. And I would say that my parents love us very much and did a lot for us and have also sacrificed a lot for us. But I would say that they were and are in an unhappy marriage. They are not fulfilled. And in my opinion, they had us to find a meaning in their life, which they didn't find before. So yeah, I have some struggles in my childhood, and I'm aware that some childfree people had amazing childhoods, and that's absolutely not the case for everyone just like me. But I think some reasons why I don't want children are related to my parents and to my childhood.
(04:49):
So for example, I felt a lot of responsibility towards my parents and towards my younger sisters. I felt that I had to achieve the wellbeing, the emotional wellbeing of my parents, and also to be a role model for my sisters. And this was not a very comfortable way to grow up as a child. I think it shifts a lot of things in my life right now also, because I still struggle to know where my responsibilities are and where they belong to someone else. I think also there is something like people who don't want children, they wouldn't stay there where I grew up because you don't have what you are looking for when you have more free time and more freedom. So yes, that was where I grew up. And this wasn't until I started traveling a little bit and I started meeting more childfree people.
Nandita Bajaj (05:45):
Definitely. And you said that your parents had the four of you to find fulfillment, to maybe alleviate some of the unhappiness that they were experiencing in their marriage. What did that look like? What kind of expectations did they put on you in addition to you feeling an internal responsibility to make them happy and fulfilled?
Miriam (06:11):
One example of this is my mother has many times in the past told us that she didn't want to end up alone and she didn't want to grow old alone. And she has told us many times, When I am old, I want you to be there, which is kind of a burden, I would say. This made us feel like, Oh, okay, now we know why we are here. And yeah, I mean, it was not the only reason, but this is one expectation. Or for example, I know that my mother has the expectation of having grandchildren, and when we were fighting, for example, she would say, Oh, but you will understand when you will have children.
Nandita Bajaj (06:58):
Yes.
Miriam (06:58):
So this kind of expectation, for example.
Nandita Bajaj (07:02):
Yeah. And this expectation that you'll be there to take care of them when they're older, I mean, that is cross-cultural. You may choose to support your parents, but if that's a built-in expectation, that can be a very heavy burden, especially if you don't have a great relationship with them. So how did those pressures make you feel as you were going through your childhood and your teenage years? You said you're the oldest of your siblings. In what ways did you feel responsible for your younger siblings and also for keeping the family together?
Miriam (07:41):
Well, I would say that I felt very much like an adult inside because I had to control how I react, how much I express of my needs, of my wishes, of my emotional liability as a child. So I had to have control over this and to choose very wisely when I could show these needs and when I couldn't. So I was trying to not overload the system, the family system. I was trying to be perfect. I was trying to be very serious at school, to not make any problems, to be very kind, to be the helper. And I was trying to save my mother. And it was me trying to bring her some cup of tea and then saying some nice words saying, Oh, it's not as bad and things will be different, these kind of things. My mother has mental health issues and this is not diagnosed and she actually needs a therapy and she has never seen any doctor about this issue.
(08:53):
This has had a very high cost on her life because she has struggled very much in her professional life. She has had jobs where people made fun of her and she has several jobs where she had lost it because people wouldn't understand how she functions and because she wouldn't understand how people socially react to each other and because she cannot control how she reacts to the people. So she cannot control her impulses, her words. And obviously this is a spiral because she has a very bad self-esteem. She has experienced a lot of rejection her whole life. And then also having to keep those jobs because of your children, because you just need that money. This was very difficult and this is what I witnessed, and this is also in part one reason why she was not a role model and why I didn't want to repeat this.
(09:50):
I realized that I didn't want to follow the same script as she did. I think one hope she had was to be doing better and to become happier, just sticking to that script of, okay, I will find a man I will marry and I will have my children and because everyone is happy through this, I will reach it also through this. And I witnessed that it was not working. And so as a little child, I thought this is not the solution. If there is any possibility that I can live a different life, I will do it differently.
Nandita Bajaj (10:27):
So that's a lot to take on as a young child to not only have to put aside your own needs and desires and happiness, but to then take on the responsibility of an adult to kind of parent your own parent. So I can totally understand why there would be such a strong rejection of that script. When did you start making that connection that you want to make a different choice, whether or not that choice is available is a different question.
Miriam (11:00):
Well, first, what I found out is that I was doing very well with more distance. So I put some distance to my family. I moved to Germany and I started having a very good life in Germany and I started doing my own experiences, meeting some persons that had no children and who were very happy. And I think it was more the sum of experiences I had made me actually want this childfree life, but I didn't realize it. So I can actually remember very well the first woman I met who had no children and who was 60 years old. And I was working on a farm in France, in the north of France, and I was 19. And I remember I was so excited about it because I felt, wow, she has so many projects. She's so inspiring. She's so confident. She's having a very good life and she doesn't seem to miss anything.
(12:02):
And also noticing that I started to really have my own life with my freedom, my hobbies, my dancing, this was something where I though, oh, actually this is making me so happy. I don't want to give it up anytime. The freedom I find and the fulfillment I find in arts and sports. And then the realization came when I met my current partner. I was 20 years old and we were just friends. And then when things started to be closer and then we got to know each other, and I think it was one of the very first conversations we had, he was very, very open about the subject of children and he asked me whether or not I wanted children and he said in a very calm way, oh no, because he's not having any and he's sure about that. And yeah, what about me? And it was the very first time someone asked me this question without expecting anything in advance and even giving me some positive vibes about giving a different answer.
(13:14):
And one very funny thing is I remember that when I heard he said he didn't want any children, I was sad and I though, oh, what a poor guy, what must have happened? And then I thought he would be such a great father because he's very patient, he's very balanced and very happy and I felt he would be amazing. How sad? And this also shows how deep inside of us pronatalism is because looking back, I'm so sure I absolutely don't want any children, but this wasn't clear at that time in my head. So I was thinking, okay, I like this person very much and actually I would love to get to know this person more and I would maybe love to imagine a future together. And then within days I imagined for the first time how my life would be without children. And actually immediately I felt such a relief, like a very, very heavy burden fell off my shoulders.
(14:24):
And I think it was one of the best things that happened in my life. And he also makes jokes about it. He says he didn't have to convince me. He says he just had to ask me one question and then that was it. And I know that if we would break up tomorrow, I would keep that happy secret for myself for the rest of my life that I don't have to be a mother and that I can live a life without children. Every single day I think about this subject since then, I am even more sure that I will be much happier living a life without children and that this is what I wanted already before, but I had not realized it. I was 20 years old and I grew up in one of the most progressive countries in the world, in France, and I still didn't understand that I didn't have to have any children.
(15:17):
So that is what shows how deep pronatalism is. And actually looking back, it is so clear that I didn't want any children. It is so clear. When I was a teenager, my best friend would tell me things about how she would raise her children and how she would be such a mother or such a mother and she would tell me, oh, you would be such a good mother. And then I actually, I always felt this deep feeling inside of, I'm not sure I want to do this. And then she would be very sad because she was afraid of not being able to reproduce because there were cases of infertility in her family. And I can remember that I was thinking as a teenager, I don't think that would be so bad. Actually, I think I would be happy, that would be so much easier. I would be relieved that it would be the best for me, but still I didn't understand that I didn't want it until that day.
Nandita Bajaj (16:22):
Oh my God. It's amazing how similar our stories are, but also so many other people have shared something similar. And so in your 20s, you went to university, you went to medical school and studied, and you're still dating the same person that you met when you were 20?
Miriam (16:39):
Yes. Actually, he's the one who taught me many things about overpopulation. He was a researcher. He did a PhD in geography and marine biology, and he was very much aware of, or he is, of the issues of overpopulation. This is actually his main reason why he doesn't want to have any children. And I have to say that I wouldn't know probably if I had not met him that this is such a big topic. And this is also the reason why he left academia, because one of the reasons he was very frustrated by denial, even coming from very informed researchers in the environment research and people knowing that population is a thing, but then just never bringing it on the table. So he left and now he's happier outside of it.
Nandita Bajaj (17:39):
Good for him. And I hope he finds some validation through our work and through our other podcast as well, OVERSHOOT, where we cover population denial in so much depth and equip people with the courage and the language to continue to talk about this issue. And so now you are 28 years old and you said you're living with a number of roommates and a flat and that you're loving this life. Can you talk a bit about the choices that you've made to, well, live on your own away from your family, but also to not have children? Did you have a discussion with your family yet about this being a decision that's already been made?
Miriam (18:25):
Well, let's say my mother still puts a lot of pressure on us, but I think she's aware that if she puts too much pressure, she might lose us. So she is careful, but yeah, she's still expecting children from us. We are still very young. My youngest sister is 17 and we are four, so I'm happy that all of us, we are telling her it's for later. My twin sister and I, we begin to tell from time to time, Oh, there won't be any children. I don't think she's taking it very seriously right now, but I have shown that I'm not very enthusiastic about it, but I wouldn't say that I have told it very directly. And I think I just expect time to help me, and at some point it will be too late and then she will have to understand it.
Nandita Bajaj (19:19):
Yes.
Miriam (19:20):
One thing I didn't say is she's a very Christian, and so it is very much in her values to expect those children and she won't question it. But at the same time, I see that she has accepted much more than what I expected of my life, of me moving far away, of me living a very different life. So actually I trust her to be fine about it at the end. And the life I'm living right now is a very nice life, I would say. I would say some of the reason why it is very clear to me that I don't want any children are sad. But at the same time, when I understood that I didn't have to have any children, I understood that I could live my best life and that I could follow my dreams. I could do even some more studies one day if I want to.
(20:18):
I won't have to worry about money. I won't have to sacrifice my freedom and my hobbies, and I can even be more active for environment. I'm active against food waste here. So yeah, I am very, very hopeful for myself. I'm not as hopeful for the world and the planet, but for myself on an individual level, I think I'm a very lucky person. I live in one of the best places in the world, in my opinion, and I'm very, very, very grateful.
Nandita Bajaj (20:54):
Yes, indeed. I love that even though the decision to not have children was born out of a rejection of the family life within which you grew up, and yet after making the decision, you realized that it is your best life, a choice that is a happy choice. And you also wrote something very interesting about the kind of work that you do as a junior doctor and what you observe around older people who have or don't have kids. I wonder if you could share a few experiences to also shed a light on this expectation around pronatalism.
Miriam (21:38):
First, I am working with depressed older people right now as a junior doctor. So I have many people with children, some people without children, and I can see that many of them had the expectation of being helped by their children, and then this is very different story at the end. So I am still right now seeing very different scripts that what is the mainstream story we are told. This is one point. And then I realized sometimes I have patients who are not very depressed actually, and they just don't want to live anymore, and then they come to us. And this is something where we say we don't see depression. We see someone who has lived a very good life sometimes. I have had those cases and this person is telling us this is the end and this person doesn't want any other life to push any boundary further.
(22:44):
And so basically I have had patients very interested in medical assistance for dying, and I felt a very strong connection to those people because they were asking for autonomy when they were actually losing it and they were trying to regain some control over their lives. And they were aware that this wouldn't get better and better, at least for their physical health. And they wanted to put an end to this, which is actually very much against, for example, religious values. So then I realized when I listened to the episode with Molly who was talking about medical assistance in dying, and she did that connection, that weird connection between not wanting children, for example, and wanting to decide when your life ends. I very much share her opinion that there is a connection. This is more putting an emphasis on personal autonomy, control, and also kind of realism.
Nandita Bajaj (24:00):
Yeah, that's such a wonderful connection. And I'm so glad that Molly's experience with her own husband opting for medical assistance in dying and her being so supportive of it also resonated with you. And I really appreciate your point about it truly being about autonomy, when life begins, when life ends, and how much control we have over our own lives, and how much ideological reasoning and laws prevent us from having that autonomy. So yeah, I'm really glad that you're in that position to be a source of support for those patients, even if you don't have control over what happens, but the fact that you can understand and empathize with them must be so helpful for them. Is there anything else that you'd like to share before we wrap things up?
Miriam (24:54):
I would just say that I'm very happy that you have this podcast. This is helping me a lot and just knowing that I'm not the only one. I think many things I could realize only through those episodes. So yeah, thank you very much.
Nandita Bajaj (25:10):
Thank you so much for saying all of that. And I'm grateful for you for, again, like I said, having the courage to join me. I know when you first reached out to me and you were quite nervous about coming on the podcast to share your own story and even wondering whether you had much to offer to this podcast and to our listeners. I can tell you after speaking with you, you have so much to offer. Your story was truly wonderful and moving, and I know it'll resonate with so many people. Thank you so much for joining me, Miriam. I loved talking to you.
Miriam (25:49):
Thank you, Nandita.
Nandita Bajaj (25:51):
That's all for this edition of Beyond Pronatalism. To share feedback about the show or a particular episode or to share your own story on the podcast, please get in touch with me using the link in the show notes. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us on your favorite podcast platform and share it widely. We couldn't do this work without the support of listeners like you and hope that you will consider a one-time or a recurring donation. Thank you so much again for joining me today as we collectively discover and celebrate the many different pathways to fulfillment beyond pronatalism. This podcast is brought to you by Population Balance, the only nonprofit organization advancing the rights and wellbeing of people, animals, and the planet by confronting pronatalism and other harmful ideologies. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Nandita Bajaj, with the support of my production team, Josh Wild and Alan Ware.
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