New Film: To Kid or Not to Kid
Is motherhood an essential part of womanhood? Some think so, and it might surprise you how much societal pressure remains today for women to have children. Mothers hope for, and some pressure their children to give them) grandchildren. Friends ask newlyweds when they’re going to “start a family” (aren’t the newlyweds already a family?). Even the attitudes of some medical professionals can lack sophistication. Some couples make the decision to have children as an automatic default – just the next step in life. Maxine Trump gave this decision much more careful and thorough consideration. She documents this in her new film, To Kid or Not to Kid. The filmmaker shares her thoughts and observations on the subject with the World Population Balance team.
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
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Audio Clip 00:01
When are you going to have a baby? That, without doubt, is the question young married couples hear most. After all, isn't that what the American Dream is all about? But Marcia and Warren Rothstein wanted to explain their decision not to have children to his parents. 60 Minutes went along as they broke the news. "Child, a child is very important in a family life."
Audio Clip 00:23
This was something inside of me that said, "I don't really think I want to be a mother. And it bothered me. I thought, my God, Marcia, there's something wrong with you."
Dave Gardner 00:33
That stopwatch is the unmistakable audio signature of the long running CBS News series, 60 Minutes. And that was of course, the famous voice of Mike Wallace, in a 1974 episode. Have attitudes about womanhood and motherhood evolved since then? We'll dig into that topic with filmmaker Maxine Trump next on the Overpopulation Podcast. On this episode, a conversation with Maxine Trump, the filmmaker behind the new documentary, To Kid or Not to Kid. The film opens in theaters for a week in New York and Los Angeles on November 15th, 2019, and will screen in Toronto November 28th. Hi, I'm Dave Gardner, Executive Director of World Population Balance, and host of the Overpopulation Podcast. I'm joined today by two members of our staff Alan Ware and Carolyn VanderDolder. Hi, guys.
Alan Ware 01:26
Hey.
Carolyn VanderDolder 01:26
Hi. Happy to be here.
Dave Gardner 01:28
I'll bet you are, aren't you excited about the conversation we're about to have with Maxine Trump?
Carolyn VanderDolder 01:31
Very.
Alan Ware 01:32
Great film.
Carolyn VanderDolder 01:32
I mean, the film is great. And she's so articulate and insightful. I think it's gonna be great.
Dave Gardner 01:37
Well, so great in fact, why don't we just skip the listener feedback? And let's just jump into it.
Alan Ware 01:42
Okay.
Carolyn VanderDolder 01:43
Perfect.
Dave Gardner 01:43
Alright. Maxine Trump has directed documentaries for the Discovery Network, TNT, the Sundance Channel, BBC, TLC. She worked at the BBC in London for seven years as a development executive for scripted comedy, believe it or not, before emigrating to the US and working as a TV commercial director and producer for eight years. So she's definitely got the filmmaking chops. But of course, we're not going to be talking to her today about filmmaking so much as about the subject of her latest film, which I'm gonna guess may be the most personal film she's ever done. Is that a fair assumption? Is this the most personal film you've ever made, Maxine?
Maxine Trump 02:24
Dave, yes. Without going into too much incredible detail. Yeah, it gets crazy intimate, and was really, really hard for me to make because of that. And, you know, I've made films in jungles and forests and gone, you know, way away from home into tricky situations and difficult circumstances. But I think when you make something so personal, it gets into territories that you, you're a little unsure about because you, you're becoming so vulnerable yourself. But I do think it's an amazing exercise for a lot of filmmakers though, because if you're expecting people to open up to you, it's only right that you also feel brave enough to open up as well.
Dave Gardner 03:13
Yeah, that makes sense. Before we get too deep into the subject, you're probably sick of it. But you know, I just have to ask the question that's on listeners' minds. Maxine Trump, any relation to the President of the United States this week?
Maxine Trump 03:27
You know, I was delighted last weekend because the film got mentioned in the big pullout holiday section of the New York Times and the LA Times. And it was wonderful in the New York Times, because to explain my last name, I had to do something about it. And the only way I knew how, and that was to make a short documentary about the fact I wasn't related to our current president. And it's called Trump Against Trump. And the New York Times said very little about my new film, but brought out the facts that I had to make this short film...
Dave Gardner 04:05
Doesn't it figure? Doesn't it figure?
Maxine Trump 04:07
It was kind of incredible. And it made me chuckle, my friends and I chuckle no end. But it was really releasing, I think a lot of filmmakers, and Dave, I know you've made your own film as well, but we make films to sometimes be our own therapy in a way, or to get to explore an issue that is incredibly close to your heart or you're passionate about. My last film was about saving a rainforest. And this film by it's title, To Kid or Not to Kid, you probably get to know really what it's about just by its name, which makes me really happy about deciding whether or not to have children.
Dave Gardner 04:45
Well, Maxine, we started the episode with a little tease, where I played a little bit of this episode of from 60 Minutes, which you included in your film. And I started with that because I think that's really good setup for the big questions that you examine in the film. The woman profiled in that 60 Minutes episode in 1974, Marcia Davis, was a school teacher. And she was fired the day after that episode of 60 Minutes aired, and eventually wrote Confessions of a Childfree Woman. I think that's got to be pretty shocking to most people today that that ever happened. That was 1974. Today, it's 2019. So let me ask, have women come along way, baby?
Maxine Trump 05:29
You know, it's incredible question because in, on one side of the issue, you know, with the Me Too movement you would think we have, but it's so ingrained in our culture, that women's place on this Earth is to have children - and men too, you know, the expectation is that you must bear children. And I think we're still a long way, actually, from accepting many people, up to 25% of the nation will decide they don't want children or have a small family. And I think it's something, for me, that was the reason I made this film, because I couldn't believe there wasn't a film out there that explored this or talked about this, because it seems such a taboo subject. Which is kind of shocking because all we're saying is, "Let's think about this." So yeah, a surprise. And the only thing that I am seeing, which makes me really happy, is that I'm seeing this written about a lot more. When I first started making this film six years ago, there weren't, there were a few articles and a few books, not many. And now there's actually an explosion of articles. And and now we have the first film. And I hope, you know, there are many more books on this subject. So I do think there's a grand shift, at least in younger people talking about it and writing about it. And that makes me hopeful that it's seen more of a norm and not an anomaly.
Dave Gardner 07:00
Yeah, let me quickly run down what I see has happened just in the last few years that I think has really changed the dialogue, because I want to ask you a quick follow-up question about that. You know, in just the past year, we've heard US Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez raise the question of whether it's okay to have children in the age of climate change. We've witnessed the genesis of the Birth Strike movement in which women are refusing to conceive children because the world isn't going to be a good place for future children. A few years ago, a group of women started Conceivable Future to help women discuss and consider the issues around having children in a world where their future may be bleak. And about a year ago, it was announced that the birth rate in the US has hit its lowest point in thirty-two years. As a result of that, suddenly, there seems to be a lot of concern out there about millennials choosing not to have children. So just those four things alone seemed to have really kind of opened the floodgates, and you may have other things that you think have also precipitated that. It almost seems like the timing of your film couldn't be more perfect.
Maxine Trump 08:05
Yeah, I agree Dave, and Alexandria and the Birth Strike movement happening in the last six months was really exciting. And the Birth Strike movement really got some viral attention. And there's a couple of women out of the UK, which probably you can tell by my accent. I'm also British, but I'm based here in America. And the film very much takes place on both continents, both in Europe and the US. And we also interview a lot of people from around different parts of the world as well, where they're they're judged even maybe more harshly in very patriarchal societies about this. But yeah, you're right, Dave, it's really interesting. I mean, having a prominent politician really talk about this quite openly was very, very exciting. So there has been, absolutely in the last few months, even more movement on this, which you're right, I'm delighted that the film is coming out now.
Carolyn VanderDolder 09:01
Well, congratulations. It's really it's a captivating film and gives such a nuanced look at the whole issue. I think it's going to be an important piece. So congratulations on that.
Maxine Trump 09:10
Thank you.
Carolyn VanderDolder 09:11
Just to get everybody kind of on board with with what the film is about, I wonder if we could share an early moment. Dave, I think you have a clip.
Dave Gardner 09:19
Alright, let's listen.
Maxine Trump 09:21
I never dreamt of having kids. When I was younger, I didn't want anything to tie me down. I backpacked around the world. I slept on the streets in Australia, lived in Paris, London, and New York. Got a job full of travel and adventure. Never thought I'd settle down. never even thought about walking down the aisle. But then I met this guy. I got married, bought a house. Ticked all the boxes except children. Now I'm angry that as a woman in my forties, I have to make this decision. But I never confessed to having second thoughts. Not to my family, not to my husband, not to my friends.
Carolyn VanderDolder 10:22
So in the film, we come to understand some of the ugly comments that are made around people who are, who are choosing not to kind of automatically do the marriage and children, marriage and family kind of thing. Have you experienced that personally? Have you have you witnessed it? Why do you think that that happens? So, it really is kind of rude. I just wonder why people feel able to do that.
Maxine Trump 10:46
I think you hit the nail on the head, Carolyn, by saying it's rude, because fundamentally, it's rude, right?
Dave Gardner 10:51
Yes, yes, yes.
Maxine Trump 10:52
Right? You know, it's like. And, you know, what I find even more shocking is for my childless sisters who actually can't have children, and have really struggled to come to a place of acceptance that they can't have children, I mean, how do you know where that question is being fired at? And, and I think delightfully, I've had parents that have said to me, and they've, this is up to you whether you keep it in or not, but I had one parent who actually said to me, "Misery loves company." And she was talking about herself because she actually regretted having a child. And she said, "I think a lot of people want you to join their gang." And and I don't sign up to that. I don't think there is a competition on who's happier. I find that a really, really difficult arena to go into. There's a lot of kind of online debate about are you happy if you have kids, or are you happier if you don't have kids? I don't pay much truck to that conversation because it's each, you know, what makes you happy. And for me, it was a process of finding out what made me happy and being allowed to decide just what made me happy in the same way parents have children because it would make them happy. So let's just put aside who's right or wrong or, but coming back to your point, Carolyn, and about really difficult conversations that people have had, with people deciding whether or not to have children, I've had comments, "Well, isn't it the normal thing to do? Aren't you being abnormal by making that decision? How do you make new friends if you don't have kids?" I've had one person say to me, "Because I was told from a very young age, it might be difficult for me to have children." And that's how I open the film. Because there was a chance, there's absolutely a chance I could still have children. But I had somebody say to me, "Well, surely it's easier for you, Maxine, because you were told, 'Well, it might be hard.' So by deciding not to have kids, that's an easier decision for you." And that that hurt, actually that really hurt, because I went through quite a traumatic time when I was a younger girl, because I had lots of complications with my womb. But then I've, you know, people have told me, obviously, I know I'm making a film. A lot of people come to me about this and have been told that they've, I've been told that they'd been written out their will if they don't have children, gay couples aren't real couples until they have children. I mean, the floodgates have just opened and I can go on and on and on with some of the comments people have told me and I just like, why is it anybody's business except your own?
Carolyn VanderDolder 13:36
Do you think it's just because, you know, so much of our society's development and economics and everything is predicated on this growth and kind of pronatalism? Do you think that it's just an an unthinking assumption that people are reacting to or?
Maxine Trump 13:50
Well, I also don't pay much heed to the economic argument, either. I think there's a lot of rethinking that we need to do about that. Because my big ideology about, let's let's say ideology for want of a better term, is that how are we going to sustain all of the people on the earth that we have already? How are they, are we going to have jobs for everybody? How are people going to eat? How are people going to have comfortable living and water and energy, etc., etc. So the economy of endless growth? I don't sign up to, and we're starting to see a few economic, ecological economic, sorry. Thank you.
Maxine Trump 14:34
It's really hard to say the word economist, isn't it? Just don't we wish they would all disappear?
Maxine Trump 14:39
Well, especially with ecological in front of it. Bit of a tongue twister. So I can push back as hard as people will push to me, and there's a lovely scene in the film where I actually go and talk to an economist.
Dave Gardner 14:53
You think that was a lovely scene?
Carolyn VanderDolder 14:56
That was hard for me to watch.
Maxine Trump 14:59
Well, you know, without giving too much away, he actually, the first thing he said to me, which isn't in the film, is he doesn't sign up to the endless growth economy as an economist. And I'm going to have a lot of deleted scenes that are going to be shown as well. So that was pretty great. I mean, he went on to say other things that come in the film, but I won't give everything away, but it's it's an interesting scene. I like how you put it, Dave. It's - I say enjoyable because it's always good to talk to people that don't necessarily agree with you. But at the same time, I think it was a good one. A good a good scene for the film for sure.
Dave Gardner 15:39
Well, I found myself wanting more of that only because, you know, it's kind of like hard not to look at a wreck at the side of the road. Don't you think there ought to be a law against economists weighing in on this subject? You know? Talking about women giving birth to children?
Maxine Trump 15:54
Yeah, yeah. I think you've, again, just said it. Women giving birth to children. If you're a male economist, what right have you got to tell me what I should do with my body, right? And that's exactly what you're saying. They can talk about the economy til the cows come home. But that's their field, and they can talk about it very eloquently. And they will have done, you know, a lot of academics, a lot of research in that area. But don't tell me what to do with my body. Absolutely.
Dave Gardner 16:25
Yeah, I find that particularly offensive when they basically say to the women, "Get busy incubating more workers, taxpayers, and consumers." Disgusting. Yeah. And too many of the economists don't have very much intelligent to say about the economy either because they're steeped in that growth-boosting perpetual growth mythology. But anytime you can talk to an ecological economist, that's a good thing.
Maxine Trump 16:48
Yeah.
Carolyn VanderDolder 16:48
You mentioned your mom. In the film, it sounds like she maybe doesn't understand your choice to not have have kids. Do you want to talk about that at all? Or how that is now? Or?
Maxine Trump 17:00
Yeah, I let that play out because that develops in the film. And that's very much a journey for her. It was really difficult. I do remember very early on, when I was much younger, my mum actually really sharing a great piece of wisdom saying, "Listen, don't look at having kids through rose-tinted spectacles. It's difficult. It's a struggle. It's hard." But then as I got older and got nearer to the end of my so-called childbearing, biological childbearing years, that conversation changed, and her struggle with coming to terms, or my struggle also, with trying to talk to her about it. And being in this place of I think I might not want children? But it was, it was hard. And that's the beginning. You know, that's very early on in the film, where obviously, I'm not going to be able to turn to my mum about this.
Dave Gardner 18:03
There was one comment your mother made in one conversation on the film that I would really like to play for our listeners, because I'd like to access your expertise on the other side of that.
Audio Clip 18:13
I was, I've never felt that I was the best mother. You said a moment ago about being like, you don't think you would do it well, being a mother. Well, I think like this - you just do it. Some people do it well, and some people don't. There isn't a guidebook, really. You just do it.
Dave Gardner 18:30
So that's what I wanted to talk about is - you just do it. Because, do you think do you think that happens a lot?
Maxine Trump 18:41
Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I've had, again, it's kind of been amazing. So the film isn't out in theaters until November 15th. But we've been touring the country in film festivals, and had wonderful Q and As. And the amount of times that it's kind of opened this door for parents to talk to me about the struggles for them, which has been a real surprise and delightful for me, because I wasn't expecting that audience to react in quite the way they've reacted. And people have said, you know, they haven't thought, they didn't really think about it, they didn't realize how hard it would be, you know, get all their, what's the what's the saying? Their books in order or the light... Anyway, essentially, people have said, "It seemed almost you think harder in the film about not having children than some people do about having children." And I think that's why I made the film, because it's allowing people this space and this room to watch it, to send it to people that may not understand their indecision or the process, and to give them space and room and time. Because I think everybody needs that. And I think for a lot of people, it's just seen as this next step. And let's now take a pause because the world is in a different place. And it has been since the seventies, progressively moving into a different place. So let's be conscious of of this momentous decision. Like how can you make this quickly and easily? And like I've said, many, many parents have turned around to me and said, "I wish we thought harder about it."
Dave Gardner 20:28
Yeah, so I think the takeaway here is that every couple, before they make this decision, they need to make a documentary about it.
Maxine Trump 20:37
Maybe, yeah. Maybe.
Dave Gardner 20:39
That would be a good assignment.
Carolyn VanderDolder 20:41
One of the things I really value is just the different perspectives and the different thought processes, or not, that have gone into this decision for so many people. You know, we're finding out more and more that although we think of ourselves as rational creatures, and that we make decisions based on facts, I mean, that it so seldom happens that way. And this is just another, it's like an example of how you might start to think about this, and why why it's important to think about it as opposed to just kind of going along with unthinking expectations or something. So it's, yeah, I think it's a gift to, especially in this country, where each birth has such a huge impact on the environment, that the world, the whole world feels, it's a real gift to us.
Maxine Trump 21:23
Thank you, Carolyn. And this, I hate this term in very extreme sort of childfree communities, there's a term that's often used called breeder, which I think is a really negative term and it doesn't help anybody. But you know, people aren't going to stop having kids, right? You know, and it's on many, it's been many of my friend's hearts desire to have children. And there is absolutely the space and room for those people. But people like me, or people that don't feel empowered, when they don't feel like they possibly don't want children, then they should feel empowered to make that decision to not have children, because the world doesn't need any more children. Yeah. So and that's essentially the whole reason for making the film is, I think a lot of, and I won't get too political here, but a lot of our problems that we're facing, and a lot of societal problems, are often caused, I think, from people that weren't loved and weren't brought into the world safely and in a caring environment and wanted. And I, that's, I have no proof to back that up. I have no scientific qualitative data about that. But I, I really believe that. That's really on my heart. So let's just give people the option to decide that they don't want children and congratulate them for that, too.
Dave Gardner 22:47
Yeah, that could be almost as important. Obviously, we're real interested because we're, at World Population Balance, really focused on trying to get the world on a trajectory toward a more sustainable number of human beings on the planet. But, boy, almost as important is for every child who is brought into this world for them to be brought up in a loving home and have their needs met, and not be so mistreated as so many children are.
Maxine Trump 23:15
And also Dave, like you just said, have their needs met. You know, if you, you know, and maybe this is super controversial, probably not for for you or your audience, but how can you really have hugely large families in this day and age when we have to think about where their needs can be met? You know, how are the resources going to be stretched that thin for that amount of people? And this is, you know, I come from Europe, which has much more sort of socialist leanings. But if you're having large families, should you also not be thinking about people in your community that - how are the resources gonna go round?
Dave Gardner 23:55
Yeah.
Maxine Trump 23:56
So, you know, from that point of view as well, it's like, they need to be loved and cared for and cherished and fed and kept warm and a roof over their head. And all of those things that I know your audience have thought of long and hard. So we don't need to spend too much time there. But I think we're all talking the same language.
Dave Gardner 24:16
Is that part of the reason why you brought Victoria Elder into the film, you had a conversation in the film with a woman who has basically come out and admitted that she regretted having a child.
Maxine Trump 24:27
Yeah, which I think is even more of a taboo than saying you may not want a child, and-
Dave Gardner 24:34
No kidding. Yeah.
Maxine Trump 24:34
Right? She was incredibly brave. And I give her major props, because more people have come out and told me that since making the film. You know, they've come up to me afterwards and said, "That's true for me too," and have been in tears and said, "You know, I feel I can only admit it to somebody like you, you know, and I'm not going to admit this to anybody else except you. And my children will never know this." But this is absolutely, that's why I had to go and visit with her because that could have been where I was. And so she's an amazing woman, an amazing character, and her child is just so well built-up and felt so loved. And Victoria talks about well, she was very, very aware to make sure her child never felt not wanted. So she over-compensated, and her really wonderful family. But I applaud her for being able to be that brave.
Dave Gardner 25:35
And didn't Victoria say in the film that she got worn down by the expectation to the point where she was, ultimately she was happy when she was pregnant, because, I guess because she had been brainwashed into believing well, of course, that's the next step.
Maxine Trump 25:50
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Exactly. And that I think happens for a lot of people, they just are told it's the norm. It's the norm. I was at a film screening in Ohio, and I was delighted to screen the film three times in Ohio, where they bringing very restrictive abortion laws. And I had one young woman come up to me with her husband, again, in tears, saying, "I have not been able to tell anybody at all that I was coming to see this film, because everybody in my community is pressurizing me to have children."
Carolyn VanderDolder 26:22
Wow.
Maxine Trump 26:23
Yeah. And those are the people I am delighted to reach with the film because I feel like my work's done. If I, even if I reach only five people, and I know already I've reached more than that because of the amount of film festivals, but that makes that makes me so happy. So happy because I've been able to be there, and the film's there for her too. She can keep going back and watching it and feel supported in her decision and not alone.
Dave Gardner 26:50
Thank you for that, a round of applause for Maxine. Thank you. Incredible service. Maxine, there is one section in the film. First of all, I should probably make it clear that the film is clearly about a woman's journey trying to make the decision and be okay with the decision and all the external factors that come into play. It's not really a film about overpopulation or environmental crises. But you do touch on that a little bit. And so I'd like to play briefly a little piece of the film where you bring that subject up, and then we can talk about that on the other side.
Maxine Trump 27:28
No one seems worried that we're already at seven billion people. The estimates in a hundred year's time almost double to thirteen billion. There's four and a half births a second around the world. In the US alone, four million babies are born a year. That's two hundred and fifty babies a minute. If every human on the planet consumed like an adult American, we would need four Earths to feed them all. Yet, I'm made to feel weird by these adverts.
Alan Ware 28:02
You mentioned earlier Dave, the AOC and the Birth Strike. And those movements have been growing in more connection, especially between climate emissions and births. And you're probably aware of the Lund University study that showed each child, that that's seven to eight times more carbon emissions prevented by having one fewer child than going vegan, not flying, not driving, buying green energy. So it has this huge impact.
Dave Gardner 28:35
Let the record reflect that Maxine is nodding. So sometimes we forget that nobody can see us.
Maxine Trump 28:43
Well also, as a documentary maker, I always have to nod, I'm not able to respond. So I'm so trained in doing that. But yeah, that was a wonderful report to come out because it really, really confirms that I was doing a good job by not having children, you know, which is lovely to feel because like I said earlier, no one congratulates you for not having kids. And I had this one moment in a podcast when I was in production on making the film where the gentleman at the end of the podcast congratulated me. And it was the first time I'd ever been congratulated for my choice. And it really stayed with me and made me quite emotional because I was so aware of that. And so I've actually made congratulatory balloons, biodegradable ones, made of rubber. I was very, I had to hunt high and low for biodegradable balloons.
Dave Gardner 29:39
I'll bet, good for you, thanks.
Maxine Trump 29:42
I actually congratulate people in not having kids as well because I love that report you've just mentioned because, yeah, it's the, and actually in the film, at the end, I show a number of articles that actually bring up that report as well that say the best thing you can do for the environment is not have another child or not have one child. And that's kind of great. And you mentioned, Dave, that although I don't spend, the film isn't completely environmental in nature, we absolutely talk about it because that is definitely one of my reasons. Without a doubt. But I think there are, for a lot of people, a number of reasons. And you could probably say that sort of hammered the nail in the coffin for me that I knew that if I was in any way doubtful, then I'm doing a good service to the planet by not having a child.
Alan Ware 30:41
Well, in the film, you when you're talking with your sister, the preacher, and you talk about that poster that was on her wall. So that affected you at quite a young age, right?
Maxine Trump 30:54
Yeah, yeah. Again, I don't always admit to this, because it depends on your audience, but I'm, you know, I'm a massive greenie, always, always have been from a young age. I was a Greenpeace member, I think when I was twelve. So that had a big influence on me. And yeah, her poster, she had this amazing overpopulation poster on her wall. It's a beautiful and incredibly terrifying image, where it's a landscape and every single part of the landscape is covered by a person, and they're jam packed. It's kind of an incredible image. And you're gonna have to watch the film to see what the poster is. She actually said she replaced the David Bowie poster with the overpopulation posters. So she obviously had a similar mindset. And it is kind of wonderful, because she is a preacher, she never put any pressure on me to have children, which, for a lot of people in America that come from religious backgrounds, they often are pressurized or feel a pressure to have children. And that's not the same in Europe, it's not, we don't have this similar pressure to have children from religious groups. And that's why I'm kind of pleased that we're actually opening the film first in the US.
Dave Gardner 32:10
Why did you include your sister in the film?
Maxine Trump 32:13
That's a great, great question. You know, I've never been asked that before. I think if I didn't acknowledge that I had nieces and nephews, I think people may have felt cheated in some way. And I feel that I've been able to play a significant role in their lives because I don't have children. And my sister was a single mum. So I was really able to give support to her in the way she wouldn't possibly have had for me, in the same way I could drop everything and go and be with her because I didn't have my own children. And that's often, for good or for bad, people that don't have children and have less sort of responsibility. And for good, we can be much freer in our decisions of what we do and how we do it. But quite often, there is a pressure on us as well to pick up the pieces because we're deemed to not have a life outside of our work or and, you know, I won't go on in that direction too far, because I can talk at quite length about that. Yeah. But yeah, I felt my role for my sister. And the support I could give her was really important and benefited the rest of the family actually, for the fact I didn't have kids.
Dave Gardner 33:35
Well, I wanted to ask about that. Because there was something she said, there was a line that you included from I guess it was from a sermon, that kind of bugged me. And in fact, it took me a long time to scrub the highlighter off of my TV screen. But you know, she talked about how people have children to love and be loved. And she compared that to - and people have puppies to love and be loved. And I wondered, was that a significant statement to you like it was to me?
Maxine Trump 34:01
No, it wasn't actually. I didn't, I was kind of delighted that she didn't just leave it at kids, actually. That she talked about other areas of finding love and feeling accepted and having support and community. And, you know, I could have given her some other lines to have said, you know, that wasn't a scripted sermon. That was me filming the documentary. But I was I was delighted, actually. She mentioned people that didn't have children. And even though she brought pets up in that conversation, I'm just pleased that it wasn't all wrapped up in this bow that it all centered on you find love by having children.
Dave Gardner 34:42
Yeah, it just made me feel kind of weird. Like, wow, if people have a child, kind of like people have a puppy, that that's not a good, a good world. But it is great. If having a puppy will do it for you, you should definitely go down that road.
Maxine Trump 34:56
Right? Yeah. And I think a lot of people do have animals, you know, because of that. I don't ever talk about my animals as fur babies. I don't sign up to that. I'm not their mother or parents. But I definitely love my cat, you know. But it's not it's not filling the role of a child because I don't feel I'm missing out by not having a child.
Carolyn VanderDolder 35:19
Did you want to say anything about the baby products?
Alan Ware 35:21
Oh, yeah, that chart you showed of the spending on baby products had quadrupled in four years. That was amazing. Yeah, that was such a huge increase in such a short time. So the commodification of babyhood and consumer, I don't know if a lot of that is status seeking, or trying to perfect childhood in some consumerist way? It's interesting.
Maxine Trump 35:49
You know, it's another business that people have found a great way of making money. And, you know, I watch a lot of TV shows, and I'm still depending on the type of TV show and you know, I'm a filmmaker, I watch a lot of drama and films, and there's always ads, even though I don't have kids, that absolutely gets me to buy products for something I don't even have, you know, and it's an absolute moneymaker. And I remember when my grandmother had a very significant role in my life. And because she was, she lived through the Second World War. And so did my, my grandfather fought in the Second World War, and we always reused and they made me toys, and I played with those toys, and I just don't understand why, you know, I went out on my bike all the time, and I went and explored. And it's just a real shame that it's become this, "Okay, what's the next new thing?" And I think there is status involved in that, or at least the perfect parents, and what do you have? You know, like, I mean, it's all capitalism, consumerism, you know, we see it all the time, whether you have children, whether you don't have children, you know, it's part of that game.
Dave Gardner 37:01
Yeah, I suppose if you're too busy working to really be a good parent, then you spend the money instead and that kind of makes you feel good. At that moment in the film, I found myself thinking, your decision to bring another life into the world, that ecological footprint, that carbon footprint actually begins long before they're born. It begins with the first baby shower.
Maxine Trump 37:21
Yeah. Oh, don't get me started on baby showers. Oh my - did you, I mean, did you somehow know that-
Dave Gardner 37:29
Just a lucky guess.
Maxine Trump 37:31
I do mention in the film how they bring me out in hives, that I get an absolute panic attack when somebody invites me to a baby shower, because a therapist would probably have a field day as to why and I don't know why necessarily, except I can't, I obviously don't have children. And I find the, I don't know, I just with the gender reveal parties, baby showers, push parties now. It's incredible and insane. And anyway, like I said, it brings me out in hives. And I try and find a very nice way to say I'm really sorry, I can't come.
Dave Gardner 38:12
Well, that's interesting to get your perspective on that.
Carolyn VanderDolder 38:14
I want to sauce on something you said, Dave. You said if you're too busy working to be a good parent, then you buy your your kids stuff. And I think that there's something about not being secure in parenting and whether it's because we are parenting so much more in isolation now or whatever it is, but I think it speaks more to our insecurity rather than being a good parent or not being a good parent. So I I just, I don't want anybody to feel judged for having a kid and working.
Maxine Trump 38:41
Yeah, I'm-
Carolyn VanderDolder 38:41
Sometimes that can be a good thing, so.
Maxine Trump 38:43
Totally, I hear you, Carolyn. And and it's hard. You know, we live in an environment now where even to buy a house is, you know, it's a totally different, I mean, you know, talk about Brooklyn and New York and people have to move away. You know, people of a normal salary, I think it's something like you got, you have to earn above eighty thousand a year for you to even think of being able to buy a property anywhere near the vicinity of New York City. So I think the cost of having children, the costs of just everyday, you know, buying food, energy for the house, gas, you know, everything's just gone up exponentially. And usually people are having to both work to bring in enough of an income. And I think a lot of guilt comes with that. You know, I've had a lot of friends talk about the guilt they felt because they can't be home to pick up their child and it's heartbreaking for a lot of a lot of mothers, you know, who feel, and a lot of fathers too, who have to work. But I think it's it's also another good question to bring up that how much do we really need? And you know, we could spin off again, and I'm sure there's been, you've had plenty of podcasts talking about this Dave, but what really brings you happiness? And there are many studies about you reach a certain income, and actually, if you earn more than that, it doesn't actually make you happier.
Dave Gardner 40:08
Yeah.
Maxine Trump 40:09
So what makes you happy? And is that to move out of New York or move out of Denver, or move out of LA, or some of these, or Portland, Oregon, or Seattle, and move somewhere else, if you can still work elsewhere, and have a different work-life balance because you want to be home for your kids? You know, I've had friends that have definitely stayed home for a lot longer, but they've had to make difficult decisions about that. And you know, not taking holidays and not done, you know, eating out. And it's just what how you decide to live and what your priorities are really.
Dave Gardner 40:41
Yeah. Maxine, you don't want to be judged negatively for your decision. But I'm wondering if you think that we might be, you know, we're at the beginning of some big changes in our attitudes about that. And if it really swings all the way to where everybody or most of the people out there really understand the impact of having children and one-child families, no child families - small families really do become the norm.
Maxine Trump 41:13
And thank you for saying no child families. I appreciate that. Because we're still families. So thank you.
Dave Gardner 41:18
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think we might get, and may be unavoidable, in fact, I think it's unavoidable. I want your opinion. Are we going to get to a point where families with five children - they're the ones who are being judged negatively?
Maxine Trump 41:34
Well, I love this story. On the streets of Paris, that anybody that drives a big, gas guzzling SUV, and they're parked at a traffic light, people will walk past that car and bang them, because they don't understand why they have these huge cars in the middle of Paris. And I love that story. Because we have to wake up and smell the coffee. And I love that you mentioned earlier about Birth Strike, you've, you know, we're seeing with Greta Thunburg as well, younger people saying something has to be done. And I'm never a person that wants to point a finger, because hey, I do plenty of wrong things in my life. But I think we have to be conscious consumers and conscious consumers also involves the decision of what size of family we have, because there isn't an endless supply. There aren't enough fish in the sea, there isn't enough trees anymore. You know, it's like we could go on and on and on. So we have to be conscious consumers, and we are raising consumers when we have a large family.
Dave Gardner 42:43
So I'll probably edit this out. So there's gonna be-
Maxine Trump 42:48
Go for it.
Dave Gardner 42:48
So there's gonna be, there's gonna be a part of you that's going to be a little bit giddy that that, that we are judging them. I just think it's unavoidable. I think it's good for us to try not to. But-
Maxine Trump 42:58
Gosh.
Dave Gardner 42:59
I think a Hummer is a really cool vehicle, but I wouldn't be caught dead driving a Hummer. And mostly it's because I really don't want to have a big footprint, but partly it's because I would be embarrassed, I would be so embarrassed. And that social influence and that peer pressure has a role to play in all this, I think.
Maxine Trump 43:14
I mean, hey, I think mistakes happen. And I think some families could have decided to have a smaller size than they did. And they should have been much more aware if you have one or two drinks too many, and you have a nice evening. And lo and behold, a few weeks later... I can't tell anybody what to do with their bodies, and it's absolutely their decisions. But I think being really, really responsible about contraception. And we interview a vasectomist in the film, and he talks about 45% of pregnancies are unplanned. 45%! We're not talking 10% or 5% - forty-five!. It's just like, I couldn't believe it. I was almost on the floor when he told me that. So just just remember that conception before you have your lovely evening. You know, a big part of the research of the film is really learning the limited amount of contraceptive choices for men. There are many more for women. And we've actually partnered with the Male Contraceptive Initiative who are really working hard to fund different research projects to find more contraceptive alternatives for men. There's a gel, there is a gel, there's a pill that was Swiss. The research was stopped because of the side effects, which makes me really laugh. Cause poor us women.
Dave Gardner 44:55
Figures.
Maxine Trump 44:56
Yeah, right? You know, they've got a bigger voice. And us women have had to put up with all of these crazy hormones running around our body and, and the poor young woman who features in my film has terrible, terrible side effects from the pill. And that's why she's been seeking permanent forms of contraception because she cannot take any form of non-permanent contraception. And is now, you know, she's terrified of getting accidentally pregnant, and there are no alternatives for her. And unfortunately, condoms aren't as successful as we'd like to think. You know, please keep using condoms. But you know, mistakes happen, unfortunately with them.
Dave Gardner 45:34
Yeah, mostly it's human error on the condom side.
Maxine Trump 45:37
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Dave Gardner 45:38
But in defense of us men, there is one sterilization method that really does have some pretty bad unintended side effects. That's the Lorena Bobbitt method.
Maxine Trump 45:51
Well, we're not, we're hoping no women get that angry and perform the surgery themselves. Yeah, let's keep it with the doctors for the most part. I have these huge plans for the film. And we're getting there slowly but surely, to actually show films at conferences for gynecologists and OBGYNs and psychologists and sociologists, because if we can bring this film to people that actually are treating women and men, when they go into the doctor's office and say, "Listen, I'm I'm either thinking maybe I don't want children," and the therapist not to say, "Wow, why are you thinking like that?" And thinking they're strange. Let's hear out the reasons and be there for those people that are trying to work out what's right for them, but also OBGYN doctors, they should absolutely not be asking us, either, this is, "I'm treating you because I feel one day you're going to have a child," that shouldn't be brought into the language that they use. There can be different language that they use. Don't have the assumption for everybody, that this is what they're treating us for - a delaying of the inevitable having children, because 25% of us won't be.
Dave Gardner 47:05
I'm glad you mentioned that. Because I can't believe we haven't even talked about the fact that you do address that in the film, there is a person in the film that is trying to get sterilized at a young age. And so that's a really interesting storyline to follow.
Carolyn VanderDolder 47:20
It's shocking, that story. I was watching Rosemary's Baby, you know, for Halloween, and-
Maxine Trump 47:26
Great film, great film.
Carolyn VanderDolder 47:27
Here's Mia Farrow who, they're saying, "Well, you can't switch gyn - you know, doctors because it might hurt his feelings." And she's like, "Well, what about me?" And you know, that was made in '68. And yet here are doctors saying, "Well, my opinion about you and your life is of more value, is of more weight than what you're telling me." It's shocking.
Maxine Trump 47:48
Yeah. And I'm delighted that this film has given that young woman a voice and many young people like her, because for the most part, in all the research I've done that, if you're in your early twenties, you're having to wait at least ten years. And then you're asked what your partner thinks. And if you're married, your husband has to come in and also meet the gynecol- I mean, it's just outrageous, absolutely outrageous.
Dave Gardner 48:14
Man.
Maxine Trump 48:14
That in the twenty-first century, we're still living with, "What does your partner think? And has your partner also agreed to this?" I mean, really? Are we still in the fifties?
Dave Gardner 48:25
I don't think we've come a long way, baby. It turns out.
Maxine Trump 48:28
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 48:28
I can't believe Carolyn found a way to talk about Rosemary's Baby in this podcast. Well, fascinating conversation, which doesn't surprise me at all, because it's such a fascinating film. Let's share a little bit about why we're talking about it now, what can you tell us about opportunities to see the film coming up?
Maxine Trump 48:48
So the film opens on Friday in New York and LA, and we have some wonderful special guests that are going to join us and me on the Q and A panel, which is, we're really excited about. And then the film will play for a week in both cities. And we move on to Toronto on the 28th. And then we'll actually be on CBC in Toronto, which is like the PBS and BBC of Canada, which we're thrilled about.
Dave Gardner 49:13
Excellent.
Maxine Trump 49:14
We'll screen there on the 30th. And then the film will be available nationwide, not worldwide yet. But we're working on that because we do have international distributors that are trying to get it out to the rest of the world because we keep on getting emails all the time, which is really exciting because people really want the film, which is wonderful. And so yeah, please come along. We're almost sold out for our seven o'clock screening in New York. There's only ten tickets left, which is wonderful. Yeah, so the film will be playing all week. So you will get a chance to see it in New York. And then, like I said, we move to LA. So please come along. I'd love to meet your community as well, because I think we share a lot of similar opinions on small families, etc. So I'd love to meet World Population Balance's friends and community. And you know, and thank you for having me on your podcast as well. It's been a lot of fun. And like you said, we can talk about this because many people do, long and hard, for a long time after the film screening. So thank you for having me on.
Dave Gardner 50:19
And you know, there's a few, I don't know, slackers out there who won't listen to this podcast the minute it gets published. And so if, if you're listening to this podcast and it's been out for weeks, I think we should mention the dates for these events in New York and LA so that they'll know they missed it. So.
Maxine Trump 50:35
To Kid or Not to Kid the movie will open November 15th in New York and LA for a week, and then it'll move online in December. But before that, we'll play in Toronto on the 28th of November, and then go on CBC on the 30th, which is really exciting. So go and check out kidornottokid.com. We constantly keep the website updated with links to tickets and events coming up and screenings. So please do check it out.
Dave Gardner 51:06
And what about the Independent Lens thing? You want to mention that or?
Maxine Trump 51:09
Oh, my goodness, yeah. Thank you, Dave. So we were super lucky. PBS, which isn't always known as a network to take a lot of risks, so I was absolutely delighted that the digital team really understood what a hot topic this was. So because this film follows a lot of my journey and decision making, I was really aware that I'm a straight white woman and I'm married. And that's one story. Even though I go and visit many other people and talk to a lot of people from different walks of life, I really wanted to, gosh, I'd of loved to have made a five hour film, but no one would have watched that. So what I've been able to do instead is do the spin off web series, which is a debate show, which is super exciting because I get people from different sides of the coin about whether to have kids or whether to not have kids. And they come into the studio and debate the merits for or not.
Dave Gardner 52:10
Wow.
Maxine Trump 52:10
And it's been super exciting. It worked out really, really well. And that launches at the same time on Independent Lens' YouTube channel. So like I said, I'm thrilled that they really understood that this is a subject that affects everybody - whether they decide to have children or not.
Dave Gardner 52:29
Neat, very neat. Well, we'll include links to all of these things for the listeners to circle back and find you, Maxine. Find your website, find the screenings in New York and LA, and the Independent Lens YouTube channel.
Maxine Trump 52:43
Thanks so much. And thank you again for having me on. It's been a lot of fun.
Carolyn VanderDolder 52:47
Oh, it's been tremendous. Congratulations.
Maxine Trump 52:49
Thank you.
