Engaging Boys and Men to Confront Patriarchy in Uganda
We chat with Andrew Kyamagero, an award-winning Ugandan journalist and family-planning advocate, about the interaction of population dynamics, family planning, and male involvement in the promotion of gender equity within Uganda. Because of his incredible efforts to enhance gender equity and healthcare delivery across the country, Andrew has been appointed by the Ugandan Ministry of Health as the National Family Planning and Male Involvement Champion. We discuss the role of patriarchy in driving the high fertility rates, high rates of child marriage and teenage pregnancy, and low rates of education and female labour force participation in Uganda. We also discuss the role of Western imperialism, past and present, in undermining Uganda’s attempts at becoming a sovereign nation. Andrew highlights his unique work in engaging boys and men to confront patriarchy and pronatalism as an important strategy to complement the empowerment of girls and women in order to achieve true gender equality and a sustainable population.
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
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Andrew Kyamagero 0:00
Now Uganda like to say it has the highest fertility rates in the world, with women giving birth at an average of 5.4 children each thinks is driven by lack of access to family planning services, inadequate such education about family planning, cultural, and then the religious beliefs that are promoting large families, our culture, society dynamics instructors, they give man so much power. It explains why when you empower a woman and you empower Gao, she is not going to practice what you've told them in Autopia she is not practicing this in Pluto is in this community where the men have powers. So what we have decided is to onboard the men to understand the women as companions to understand that their fellow human beings just like them with an intent of unlearning and relearning that we can become better components, better husband's better fathers.
Alan Ware 0:57
That's Andrew Chema Giro, an award winning journalist and family planning advocate in Uganda. In this episode of the overpopulation podcast we discussed with Andrew the interaction of population dynamics, family planning and male involvement in the promotion of gender equity within Uganda.
Nandita Bajaj 1:23
Welcome to the overpopulation podcast where we tirelessly make ecological overshoot and overpopulation common knowledge that's the first step in right sizing the scale of our human footprint so that it is imbalanced with life on Earth, enabling all species to thrive. I'm Nanda Bajaj co host of the podcast and executive director of population balance.
Alan Ware 1:46
I'm Ellen were co host of the podcast and researcher with population balance, the first and only nonprofit organization globally that draws the connections between pronatal ism human supremacy and ecological overshoot and offer solutions to address their combined impacts on the planet people and animals
Nandita Bajaj 2:05
And today we are pleased to welcome a dear friend and also the newest member of our Board of Directors, Andrew Kyamagero. Andrew is an award-winning news anchor of NTV Uganda with over eighteen years of experience in journalism. He has been appointed by the Ugandan Ministry of Health as the National Family Planning and Male Involvement Champion, leading efforts to enhance health outcomes and gender equity in Uganda through the Omuntu Wa Wansi initiative, which he founded and leads. Andrew collaborates with the Ministry of Health and other partners to improve healthcare delivery across the country. And through his platform called #mancaveUG, he actively raises awareness of family planning as a sustainable development strategy. Andrew also works closely with the Ministry of Health to implement national male engagement strategies and promote reproductive, maternal, neonatal, child and adolescent health, and gender equity. Well, a very warm welcome to you, Andrew. What a delight it is to be having this conversation with you today. So as a brief introduction for our listeners, Andrew and I met in Thailand this past November at the International Conference on Family Planning. I was invited to present a talk on the link between pronatalism and population and Andrew was invited to be the host and anchor of the conference's live community sessions and the Family Planning News Network. Andrew later signed up for my graduate online course on Pronatalism, Overpopulation, and the Planet, which just ended a couple of weeks ago. And getting to know Andrew over these past four months has been a source of great inspiration. And we are so excited to have you here, Andrew, and to share your incredible work with our listeners. Welcome.
Nandita Bajaj 2:07
Well, it's very humbling to be here. Good to be here, Nandita. It has been quite a rollercoaster with Thailand just like yesterday. But today, here we are, we're talking of being in the class. It has been such a remarkable experience. Good to be here, Nandita.
Nandita Bajaj 4:15
Wonderful, Andrew. And Andrew, you are a seasoned media professional of eighteen years and you were recently appointed by the Ministry of Health as a National Family Planning and Male Involvement Champion. Could you just start by telling us very briefly how did you get involved in the family planning work?
Andrew Kyamagero 4:33
I am African and I'm coming from Uganda, that is in East Africa. And I was a very conservative man before I got so much into the entire conversation of family planning. I did not believe in the notion of family planning but I rather believed in procreation by far, as a Christian and as an African man. I never believed in one wife, but I believed in children and procreation. So in our culture, we don't believe in counting how many wives you have and how many children you have. What matters is, do you have children? And then in my broadcasting career of a journalist, I kept carving out all these stories of, you know, people who are not interested in in family planning. That was my niche. That was my career. Until one day when I found a girl from a district called Iganga. She was only thirteen years of age and she was gang raped. I was sent to go and cover this story. When I went there, I realized that her family had actually married her off to a Muslim cleric who had paid dowry to the family. And when she refused, the community just ganged against her, and she was gang raped by seven men, and thereafter, they got an orange, stuck it on a stick, and then inserted it into her privates. She was bleeding, she was in a very bad shape. I heard about the story. I went there. I reported this story, I made sure that these seven people were actually arrested, they're still in incarceration. She got the medication. But while I was talking to her mother, I realized that they didn't have any future because they had quite a lot of children, seventeen children, and they were looking at their children as the only way to better health, only way to more money, only way to living. And that's when it hit me, that wait, if people don't plan adequately about how many children they're having, they end up looking at their children as their investment portfolios. This will happen. So I chose to change my path. That was my Damascus point, for those of you who read the Bible, where Saul met Paul, turned into Paul, that was my Damascus point. And I came back. I pledged to actually run this conversation. And after six years later, the minister realized that I was calling upon the men to jump on this agenda of family planning. So I started to read more, research more, attend more conferences and seminars to understand more. I'm very thirsty for this information, and very thirsty for understanding what it does. So for me, family planning is not just a healthy tool, it is a development issue. And even when I've met the president of this country and the Minister of Health, I've kept telling them that you are lying when you don't talk about family planning. As a country, we cannot achieve the middle class income when we have the highest fertility rate as a country. So I turned into that even when I got married. It was the first conversation I had with my with my wife today. I said, "How many children do you want to have?" She said three. I said, "Well me, I'm comfortable with two." But I say, "Because you want three, it's okay. But I'm going to support you." It's a conversation I took just from being a global and national conversation, I personalized it to make sure that I understand it. I live it. I speak about it. So anytime someone says like, "Are you talking about family planning again?" I'm like, "Yes, you need to plan better." So that's how I got in there. It was that story of that girl that give me a three-sixty of like, this is how bad it gets when you don't plan better.
Nandita Bajaj 7:55
Wow. That's a very moving story. And the story of the girl herself and her family, but also how you've transformed your own thinking and your own work and advocacy in the area. It's very inspiring, Andrew, thank you for sharing that. And you, of course, are located in Uganda. And you mentioned about the fertility being one of the highest in the world. What are the main population issues facing Uganda? And what are the underlying issues driving this growth?
Andrew Kyamagero 8:28
And just to bring it to context, one of the main population issues facing Uganda is rapid population growth. And if I can go way back to the World Bank report that was actually done three years ago, Uganda's population has been growing at an average rate of 3.2%, that is per annum, which is one of the highest in the world now. The rapid population growth puts pressure on the country's natural resources, likes of land, water, and forests. And this has led to the overuse and the depletion of these resources, which in turn can affect the livelihood of the people who depend on them. Now Uganda, like I say, it has the highest fertility rates in the world, with women giving birth at an average of 5.4 children each. This is driven by lack of access to family planning services, inadequate sexual education about family planning, cultural, and then the religious beliefs that are promoting large families. With more people moving in cities in search of better economic activities, it has led to the rapid urbanization, which can strain the country's infrastructure. The increased unemployment, which contribute later to environmental degradation. Many Ugandans live in poverty and the high population growth has exacerbated this problem by increasing the competition for resources and the job opportunities. But the underlying issues driving Uganda's population growth, a little bit complex. The limited access to family planning, if I may actually expand more on that, many Ugandans don't have access to family planning. Now this leads to the high fertility rates. The limited education. Education levels in Uganda, believe you me, are relatively low, especially among the women. Now this contributes to the lack of knowledge about family planning and the benefits of smaller families. The culture and the religious beliefs. In some communities, large families are seen as a sign of wealth and status, and some religious beliefs discourage the use of contraceptives, like the Catholics. So when you look at all these, addressing the underlying issue can be the key to reducing Uganda's population growth, promoting sustainable development. This will require a comprehensive approach that includes improving access to family planning, and education, addressing culture and religious beliefs. But not only that, addressing religious and cultural inequalities.
Alan Ware 10:48
And what role specifically do you see religious beliefs and traditions playing in promoting the population growth and pronatalism?
Andrew Kyamagero 10:56
So like I said earlier on, I was one of those strong fanatics of religion. Religious beliefs and traditions play a very kind of significant role. They have the potential to shape public opinion and discourse on issues related to family size and fertility. Many religions in Uganda here place a very high value in procreation and they view children as a blessing from God. So in some religions and the traditions, having many children is seen as a way of fulfilling religious obligations. Key word here is fulfilling. Now, such as ensuring the continuity of the family line, and the propagation of faith. For example, among the Catholic, marriage is seen as a sacrament that is intended for procreation, and education of children, as well as contraception and sterilization, are considered to be morally wrong. But as long as they have the sacrament and you procreate, that is the way. So in certain cultures, a larger family size may also be associated with better social status or prestige. Religious leaders, time and again, have played a key role in reinforcing these norms in way of promoting their messages that encourage larger families and discourage the use of birth control, family planning.
Alan Ware 12:09
Yeah, the country looks like it's about 85% Christian, with 45% Protestant, 40% roughly Roman Catholic, and roughly 14% Muslim. Are there big differences between the religions and how they view family size and procreation in general?
Andrew Kyamagero 12:27
So yes, we have quite a lot of Protestants and a lot of Catholics and a few segments of Muslims. And then we have those silent other pagan kinds of religions still among us. But yes, what matters is, are the people participating under these religions, any religion that does not in any way attack the government agenda, or in any way sabotage the government agenda? Oh, it's practiced day in and day out. One way that government promotes population growth is by providing incentives to individuals to have children. Now these incentives can take many forms, some are tax breaks, cash payments, subsidies for childcare. And in some countries, the government provides free or subsidized healthcare for mothers and children as well as maternity and paternity leave. Where I am, around 1998, shortly after we came from the Liberation War in 1996, the government of Uganda brought what they called the four children per household, where every household needed to have four children. Now, if you have four children, those four children were guaranteed what they called the Universal Primary Education. So that means the parents are not going to pay for education. And this is government-aided education. And now fifteen years later, the government introduced what they called the Universal Secondary Education. So just to keep the track of those four children per household, who came through the system of Universal Primary Education, they are now enrolled into the Universal Secondary Education. And later on, they are tracked under the government scholarships of education at the varsity level. Now, that was an incentive to pronatalism. Women started to have many children, as much as they could, because they're not going to face the struggle. In Africa, people actually break their backs to make sure they educate their children. Now here it is, the government is telling you, "We can only come in if you have four, not two, not three - four. So run your race as long as there are four children, this incentive is coming." So that's so Uganda's population go up. It went up, it went up, it went up. Please note, when we had the problem come through, we were just from a war. Countries, oftentimes, that are just coming from wars, they tend to promote a lot of pronatalism messages just to make sure that the population is not as damaged as what we have lost in the war. The same applies to what happened in Rwanda shortly after the 1994 genocide, because Uganda is close to Rwanda we were not allowed to eat fish because they would dump the bodies in River Khatanga, which would later flow into Lake Victoria. So our country banned fish and any seafood or lake food for at least three years. Now, the program then in Rwanda was to encourage and incentivize pronatalism, because the Hutus and the Tutsis had actually costed the population of the country. So President Paul Kagame, again, went on the same agenda, which was in Uganda. Why? Because before the genocide in Rwanda, he was in Uganda People's Defense Forces, and he was among the strategic team that was actually liberating Uganda. So he knew how to do this. So countries that are coming from war, they look at pronatalism as a way of damage control, like how can we fill up this space? So for them, they say that we are going to offer you ABCDE, to make sure that what could actually take your stress and stress you as a Ugandan or as a citizen would get you covered. That's education, we got you covered. You need food, we got you covered. I remember shortly after we came out of the war, we would go to a parish and would find the parish chief. And they'll give us sugar, rice, posho and beans. Government was supporting all this. At the same time, they were telling their parents actually, "Give birth to more children." So you realize the absence of food, the absence of education, as pressure points to any parent is going to give that it's going to ease that.
Alan Ware 16:32
What do you see as some of the most pressing environmental issues that are facing Uganda now?
Andrew Kyamagero 16:37
The most pressing environmental issue is lack of political will. Every other day, we have quite a lot of rich men and moguls who are encroaching wetlands, and they're going scot free. We have policies that are very good on paper, but they're not implemented. Because at times, as and when the political power wants to actually take a wipe on it, they look at them as mobilizers or power blocks that could affect the voting bloc later on. So that affects the entire conversation of climate change. Yes, the noise is there, we can make so much noise about climate change and environmental changes. But the thing is, our President has always said, we don't have money to fund the climate change agenda. So whoever can do something, do something. And the classes of the business moguls encroaching on the wetlands and the environmental areas because they're connected and powerful. And they are looked at as power brokers from the different regions of the country, they cannot be reprimanded as it should be done.
Alan Ware 17:37
Yeah, we had read deforestation is, that the country had lost a third of its total tree cover in the past twenty years. And they attribute it mainly to population pressure and illegal logging, which would get maybe into the elites using it for industry purposes. But there is a population using wood for firewood, they need cooking, right? And heating, and...
Andrew Kyamagero 18:00
Of course, and you see Alan, the challenge is this. There would be renewable energy present or currently available for the citizens. It's not affordable, it's not affordable. This is close to $50 per gas cylinder. And this is someone who earns less than 100,000 Ugandan shillings, that's around the $30. So if the gas cylinder is way above his income, he's going to try to find whatever you can, anything better than that, more affordable than that, to actually go and have a meal. Like the end of the day they have to eat. And then if there was a political will, there would be subsidy on these gas emissions and LPG gases. But because the the business of the of the other renewable energies, it is all coveted by the first family. It is the son, the daughter, and all, so it does not allow other players to get in to popularize it around the country. Now all those hindrances that I can tie to the lack of political will.
Alan Ware 18:56
Right. When you mentioned people needing to eat and cook, and we've seen here in America, the New England forest have come back because people can heat their homes with natural gas. But if they don't have that, they cut down trees. And Greece had that-
Andrew Kyamagero 19:10
Correct.
Alan Ware 19:10
Yeah, after the financial crisis, Germany this past winter, I heard they were trying to restrict people going into the woods to get to get wood to stay warm. So that is a natural consequence when that's the only energy source. How do you think cultural and social attitudes impact environmental awareness and conservation efforts in Uganda?
Andrew Kyamagero 19:30
So the cultural dynamics dictate that for you to be a man enough, you must have a number that supersedes seven. If you're going to be a mother, you must have a number that supersedes seven. Every time I talked to my father, he says that I'm a loss of salt because I only have two children in my family. My entire family of seventeen men, and the man with the least children. The rest of them have eighteen and above. One of my uncle has thirty-two and is still strong. Now that belief system, in one way or the other, gets so entangled in our everyday behaviors. And it informs on how we behave as a society when it gets to population. Now, that is the culture and socially, any man, any woman, who does not have a man to their name, they are not enough, they're not worth it. Even when you just a woman and you split with your husband or you, you're separated from them, we even give you a name, you're called Nakyeyombekedde. That is loosely translated as independent woman. Now, the moment they tell you that you are an independent woman, or that you're Nakyeyombekedde, you build your own home, you're taking care of your own children, and you don't respect the man around the community. So in a nutshell, you're looked at as a disgrace in a way - that you feel you so high than the culture and the traditions you actually found enough.
Alan Ware 20:56
Are some of these values changing as urbanization continues, the big family norm? It's hard to have a big family in a city like Kampala, isn't it? Compared to rural areas? is some of that changing with urbanization?
Andrew Kyamagero 21:09
Well, with urbanization, it cannot change so fast. I'll be honest with you, even the ones in the urban areas, we are there. But we feel there is a compelling power to make sure that kids actually play with each other, that we can have a cross section of culture that meets at a particular center, that this is who we are. So urbanization has come through. But Alan, the challenge urbanization faces is that every Friday, a boy, a girl, a woman, a man is in a mosque, every Saturday, she is in a synagogue, every Sunday she is in a church, even as and when urbanizations come through these weekly interactions and fellowships, they keep on disrupting the would be change that comes with urbanization. So you come to church, or you come to the mosque, and your Sheikh will ask you, "What does your culture tell you, you could be educated, you could be a professor, but what does our culture say? What does your religion say?" Now, those are two strong weights here to stay away from, and you'll find that someone who is actually going to become independent, to have a strong mind every Sunday, Saturday, or Friday, that belief system is disrupted.
Nandita Bajaj 22:20
Yeah, and so much of what you've shared about your specific culture, I mean, it seems to be very similar across a lot of cultures. The idea that, you know, an educated woman or an independent woman who is too educated, too economically or financially independent, is actually seen as a threat to the traditional values within a culture. And that, you know, Alan and I have discussed this, and Andrew, we discussed this in our class, that often the more educated a girl or a woman becomes, the less marketable she is as a potential bride, because of her own independence. And I wonder what the relationship there is. So on the one hand, you said the government is subsidizing primary education, and we were surprised to see that 86% of the population has gone through primary education. And then as you go higher and higher, lower secondary education is fifty-one, and upper is only twenty-five. And I wonder how the number of years of schooling a woman has, how that impacts the fertility rate within that family, and whether that then is seen as a threat to the system, the family unit, because you're not producing as many children for say, your religion or your government.
Andrew Kyamagero 23:48
Correct. So this is how it works, Nandita. We can give you an education in primary and in secondary or even after university, but there is a very huge blockage between educating you and having access to sexual reproductive health conversations. Sex is sacred here. We don't talk about sexuality. We don't have conversations about, you know, comprehensive sexual education. So the education that is given, it is meant for them to pass, to read and write, not to understand - especially the girls - not to understand just to read and write. Now, that explains why the conversations around sexual reproductive health it's guarded and it's criminal in this country to talk about sexuality to anyone below the age of eighteen years. Now, the government is supporting an agenda called Purity. The Minister of Education and Sports, who happens to be the First Lady, believes in purity. So anything about early indulgence of sex among the young ones, that is a no go zone. It's not allowed. And anyone who tries to carry it out, it's treasonous. So they can allow children to go in primary and secondary, whatever education it is, but this information is kept away from them. And that's why we have been advocating for what we call age appropriate, stage appropriate sexuality information to the young ones, so that at a particular age, at the age of thirteen, and fifteen, where someone is possibly starting their menses, or they're seeing their body changes, what could this mean without scaring them, though, but telling them the fact. Now here, they tell you if you get your menses, you're a woman enough so all you need is a baby. Now that explains the big number of dropouts in P7 (primary seven), that they don't go later to secondary school, because they are getting menses, they have boobs, they qualify to be mothers, so we should marry them off. That's the agenda. And the men, the conversation is juxtaposed when a girl goes around and sleeps around when she's before age. She's messed up.
Nandita Bajaj 25:59
Right.
Andrew Kyamagero 26:00
But for the boy, "Oh, his learning his purpose, he's training, he's trying to practice." So that is the juxtaposition of the conversation. So don't be hoodwinked, Nandita and Alan, and the listener, that because they're giving them free education. There is some guarded information that the country or the regime or the establishment makes sure that this information is guarded, they make sure that there is a media desert of that particular data, that they just actually obstruct it.
Nandita Bajaj 26:30
Right. The rate of child marriage is quite high, right? 34% are married by the age of eighteen. And a vast majority of them are girls. And you had mentioned something about comprehensive sexual education in schools. It doesn't start until the age of eighteen you said?
Andrew Kyamagero 26:51
Correct.
Nandita Bajaj 26:52
Which is quite late.
Andrew Kyamagero 26:54
Very late.
Nandita Bajaj 26:54
Especially given the high rate of child marriages. So, you know, young people, adolescents who are starting to engage in sexual activity will not have received any kind of formal education about, which is not very different from certain states, even in the United States. So what are some of the ramifications of the pushback against sex education in schools?
Andrew Kyamagero 27:17
Well, there are a couple of issues that come through there, One poverty. Poverty is, it's a disease, it's actually a sin, the more a girl does not get adequate, accurate, timely information about their sexuality, they are bound to actually suffer in poverty for the rest of their lives. I mean, the child marriages have been highlighted at the different layers that they are heavy in African Uganda at large, because we're not having this conversation. Girls have gotten into situations like fistula, and in this country, we don't have enough capacity to cover the entire nation treating fistula so it means that if we could have these conversations, maybe we would actually save on that cost as a country. But because you're not having it, our country is much more willing to actually have post-abortion care than having safe abortion. That's how painful it is.
Nandita Bajaj 28:08
The other interesting thing, that combined with the high fertility rate, is the fact that 47% of the population is below the age of fourteen and 70% of the population is below the age of thirty, so it's a very young population, and a mix of lack of sex education, a lot of pronatalist policies and campaigns coming from the government and religious authorities combined with, as you said, poverty, disempowerment, are all leading into this very complicated mix of fertility-related, population-related issues.
Andrew Kyamagero 28:47
Well, these factors are often interconnected and reinforce each other. You know, it makes it very difficult to address the issue of child marriage in isolation. So my school of thought would be addressing the root causes of child marriage requires a comprehensive approach that includes education and awareness, rising the legal and policy reforms that protects girls rights and promote gender equality. But above all, if they could have access to sexual reproductive health conversations and data at very early stages, maybe that can save the day? Not only that, the political will needs to jump in. We don't need to be hiding our heads in the sand. When you're talking about purity, but when the bodies of the youth and the young teenagers are saying otherwise, can they have choices? Can they get pregnant, and they have choices? And these choices, are they affordable? Are they accessible? Are they certified? Can religion and culture find a center ground where they can focus more about the life we have today than the life that is coming when it's not planned for?
Nandita Bajaj 29:53
Right. Yeah, and the wellbeing of each of those new lives, you know, what are the emotional and material resources that are available for them? Because I mean, we see this across the globe is the exclusive focus on just life but not the quality of life of a lot of these young children that are being brought into the world. It really jeopardizes those very babies and the young children who became mothers at such a young age.
Andrew Kyamagero 30:20
Correct.
Alan Ware 30:21
What role do you think Western imperialism in the long history of that played in impacting Uganda's attempts to become more truly independent?
Andrew Kyamagero 30:31
So the more I talked about pronatalism, and I kept putting it before the the Minister of Health in every conversation, I would get them on my TV set, I would ask this question and they kept saying that, "Andrew, you are a product of imperialism, neoimperialism, coming through with the anti-pronatalism conversations." And so that's a conversation the political wingers always, you know, and it's a card that is time and again dropped in just to make sure that they downplay the conversation. Western imperialism has played a very significant role in impacting Uganda's attempts at becoming truly sovereign. Uganda, just like many other African countries, was colonized by Western powers, which had lasting impacts on our country's social, political, and economic structures. Now, during the colonization, the Western powers exploited Uganda's natural resources and labor, often with little regard for the local populations who are paying. Now, the colonialists imposed their own political and legal systems, which undermined the traditional governance structures and institutions that had been put in place. Now, this legacy has had lasting implications and impacts on Uganda's political and economic development, as well as its relationship with the West. After Uganda got independence, that was in 1962, Western powers continue to exert influence over our country's politics and economics. Now, this was often done through aid and development programs that were tied to specific conditions and priorities set by the Western donors, not our country, but the donors. Now, the West equally supported authoritarian leaders who were friendly to their interests, not to the countryman's interests. Now, this has led to human rights violation and abuse, political instabilities sometimes. I, for one, have been in safe houses more than ten times my entire career as a journalist. Every election, at least I'm sure if I miss death, I'm going to be in a safe house. So this is so true, because even when you raise your voice, and you say this is happening here, the West, who should be the custodian of democracy and human rights, they are going to look the other side because the authoritarian leaders in power are still supporting their interests. So moreover, Western countries have been accused of interfering in our internal affairs, including supporting the opposition groups and influencing the outcome of the elections. Last election, we had what they call the DGF. It was a development fund kind of basket where all donors and development partners would pool their resources and then different programs would actually be supported by DGF. But because they supported governance and constitutionalism with the opposition parties, it was closed by the President. He said they should close office and go back home because he felt in the establishment that the donors were now supporting the competitors. This interference has undermined Uganda's attempt at democratic governance and it has rather fueled anti-Western sentiments amongst so many Ugandans. It explains why some of our ministers, as in when they actually travel abroad, they are banned here, they are banned there, there are restrictions of travel back and forth, because they feel that is it, you are against us. Any journalist like me who travels quite a lot around the globe at times, I'm not allowed to interview the sensitive people because they believe the questions I'm going to ask the biased as part of the national agenda compared to the paymaster.
Alan Ware 33:59
And the IMF and the World Bank for years, right? Encouraged a commodity export kind of economy of it looks like gold and coffee are two major exports - is that still? The commodity export model is being pushed?
Andrew Kyamagero 34:14
Correct. Gold and coffee are major exports, but it is again coveted by just a few people. The coffee farmers in the countryside, because we had cooperatives, cooperatives that used to bring together all farmers, that they could decide on a pricing as a bloc. Today, they don't have it. The president said they don't need cooperatives anymore. Cooperatives have actually been taken away. Now, the farmers became fragmented. Given that now the farmers are fragmented, then the coffee business is taken up by the mafias. They give you what they have, you either take it or you don't take it.
Alan Ware 34:48
Wow.
Andrew Kyamagero 34:48
Then secondly, because now we don't have a cooperative that brings us all together, we don't have better and best practices models that can get the farmers on the harvesting and the post-harvesting handling, and the practices of how best to add value.
Alan Ware 35:01
Right.
Andrew Kyamagero 35:02
Now, that was taken. Gold is earmarked for a few clusters of what we call the historicals. If you are not from the family of those who fought in the Liberation War of the country, it will take you ages to get a license from the Ministry of Energy and Mineral Resource, because they'll ask a question, "Ogu noha?" Who is he? Who is his sponsor? Who is his entry point in this circle?" So those two are great commodities that come from a country, but they don't reflect the entire mileage to the last mile infrastructure on the ground. So this is what happens in countries like these third world countries where we come from, it's better when you control what people have. The Roman Circus motto, "Give them food and circus so that they don't pay attention to the other sensitive issues of life." That's what they do. So they take away whatever actually gives you the power to speak strongly as a bloc, and you're dismantled. So you're not speaking in harmony. But not only that, you're easy to manage, you're easy to deal with, and you're easy to bid. So cooperatives were dismantled way back in the 1980s. Uganda they were looking at it that this was one of the issues that was bringing them together. So they were unruly, and then had ideological differences. Museveni's government has had a different ideology from the previous governments, which had been more socialist in nature. But now those governments believed in cooperatives, which was seen as a socialist institution, were not compatible with a free market economy that government is trying to actually establish. So the government believes that dismantling them would allow resources to be redirected towards other areas of the economy that would be productive. So it is the ideological factors while the government believes that there was some economic development that would significantly come up shortly after they dismantled. That you and I know that it's a tool that was used to dismantle a power base that would come against the power at play.
Alan Ware 37:03
So Museveni intentionally tried to dismantle the cooperatives. That's a shame. So what is the state of women's participation in the labor force in Uganda? And how do you think that compares to other African countries?
Andrew Kyamagero 37:16
First of all, I really want to appreciate you for thinking about women in the conversation of employment because it's not an everyday question that comes through. According to the World Bank in 2020, the female labor force participation rate in Uganda was 25.6%. Now this is lower than the Sub-Saharan African average of 34.5%. But several factors contribute to the low participation of women in the labor force in Uganda: the likes of cultural and social norms, limited access to education and training, and discriminatory laws and practices. However, in the recent past, our performance is similar to that of other East African countries, such as Kenya and Tanzania. So in the recent years, there has been efforts by the Ugandan Government and other stakeholders improving women participation in the labor force, but much work still needs to be done to address the structural and cultural barriers that limit women's participation.
Alan Ware 38:15
And of course, after their paid employment, they have a huge amount of unpaid housework and childcare that, across the world, men are not sharing in equally, but it looks like in rural areas in Uganda, collecting firewood and water can be time consuming. Do men help out with that?
Andrew Kyamagero 38:35
Men are not involved in kitchen chores. In some regions, men are not even allowed to work. It's the task of a woman to go and work and make sure that there is food. Men don't engage in in that kind of mumbo jumbo, we don't. It's only a few of us who are educated and enlightened that see our partners as companions, rather than, you know, wives. Now, even when you do that, they look at you as imperialistic-minded person. So-
Nandita Bajaj 39:07
Right.
Andrew Kyamagero 39:08
Women, they spend a lot of their time in finding firewood, cultivating land, and planting. But as and when the harvests are done, you sell the produce, you get the money, you give it to your husband, and it's upon his discretion to decide how these resources are going to be used.
Alan Ware 39:25
And those are very hard norms to change, I would imagine.
Andrew Kyamagero 39:29
Oh, god, it's crazy. Every time I go in the field, you should see how at times I've run for my life.
Nandita Bajaj 39:37
And we've talked about this often is, you know, sometimes focusing exclusively on empowering girls and empowering women without actually trying to change all of the cultural norms, end up hurting those girls and women because their empowerment is seen as a threat to the more patriarchal cultures. So, are there any strategies that are being implemented to change these cultural norms that actually do end up addressing these barriers and to actually promote women's rights and women's opportunities?
Andrew Kyamagero 40:12
This is what I see. And I think women activists, what they forget is that the ecosystem is not done. And that's why Alan and Nandita, I am so much focused on the boys and the men. Our culture, society dynamics instructors, they give man so much power. It explains why when you empower a woman and you empower girl, she is not going to practice what you've told them in Utopia. She's not practicing this in Pluto, it's in this community where the men have powers. So what we have decided is to onboard the men to understand the women as companions, to understand that they are fellow human beings just like them. Now, the agenda here is, the moment you onboard the men and the boys onboard, they're in position to become the support structure of the empowerment that is being done on the other side, that when a girl meets a boy who is actually in the know of what she's trying to achieve, he becomes a support structure, rather than a patriarch at a glance. The same applies to the man. If he understands that when my wife goes and studies and she gets enlightened, and she gets educated, it's not only about her. We are going to have a well-structured home that is bound to actually succeed. And that's why I argue that population and family planning models cease to just be healthy products and models, but they are development tools. Now, what makes them development tools is that when these two partners are in position to sit and agree on the number of children they're going to have, vast is the resources and the ability at play, then we're going to have a very good home, which later will translate in your community, and later we'll see this at the district and at the national level. Now most entities are empowering the women, and this woman who is empowered and very educated is going to come back to the community and land on an egocentric, patriarchal, narcissistic man. Guess what? Domestic violence. Because the two wavelength of understanding cannot meet. And that's why most of our problems have decided to take them down to hear out the men and tell them, "Please, let's start to talk. Let's have this conversation. Can we start to dig in points or issues that are so painful as men? Can we start to talk about it?" Not with shame, not with fear of being reprimanded, but with an intent of unlearning and relearning that we can become better companions, better husbands, better fathers, this will be in position for Chief.
Alan Ware 42:45
Yeah, I think it's great you're starting with men, and questioning a lot of men's unearned privilege that most men have had in many cultures for thousands of years. And you have an organization that's been working on that throughout the country, right? Talking with men's groups. What is some of what you've been doing with them? And why don't you tell us a bit about that?
Andrew Kyamagero 43:07
My organization is called Omuntu Wawansi. So Omuntu means a person, Wansi means the bottom; at the bottom of the pyramid. That's where we have the big numbers and cases of gender-based violence, issues of population increase fertility rate and reckless behaviors. So our organization has been going to different areas, talking to the men. One with a mindset-shift agenda, men to look at women not as objects or slaves, but as companions. Women to look at men not as competitors, but as companions. And men not getting scared when women are advancing that it's a threat to who they are, no, but looking at the women advancement as an opportunity to have allies that can actualize the possibility of their dreams. Now we do that to the communities. But again, we go to schools and we talk to the boys, want to recruit them and change their mindset when they're still young, that as and when they grow, they are in position to understand the nugget of companionship, the nugget of living side by side, the nugget of not being insecure financially, physically, sexually, about a woman going far ahead than you, but rather, learning and unlearning from the different cause of life and become a better person. That's what we're trying to do. And it has not been a very easy one. Believe you me, reason - all of the different agencies globally and nationally, the big funding goes to the women and girls organizations. So every time we talk about men and boys, we get no money for that. And this has affected quite a lot of men issues being sent under. Then secondly, the feminists movements in our country, they are rather radical than meeting what is going on. And oftentimes, they'll put me on the platform's of them, I've told them the truth. They call me a misogynist, they'll call me mansplaining. But I will tell them true, that some feminists we have in this country are wounded from childhood or along the way, they were hurt by men. They were abused by men. They were brutally bruised and they're attacking the entire blame to every other man they find, and boy they find, and I tell them to be honest with you, can we all first heal, that we don't compete with any other gender, but we rather complement each other's as genders? But again, talking to the men and the boys to learn to be vulnerable? In Africa, men are not vulnerable. Every question asked, they know. Everything they say, "I know, I will tell you later," and they will go and research on a given answer. But you're trying to tell them that, "Bro, if you don't know something, and it's a woman who is asking, say, 'I don't know, but I would love to learn.'" Now, them putting down and breaking down the walls and barriers of the macho attitude, but being much more welcoming and willing to unlearn some belief systems and become much more wise with the new data and information and the frames of conversations that are coming in, we are finding a better man. But equally, the entry to that conversation. It's a very, very slim and careful work because they don't want to see you lose their culture. They don't want to see you go against their religion. So it's a very sensitive dynamic and balance there. But thank God for a couple of models we have in my organization that we have learnt to actually speak about this. So that is what has given us quite an edge of digging deep and going in communities. I don't believe so much in boardrooms, I believe in communities because communities inform the programming later on which the boardroom approves. So that is pretty much what you're doing with the boys and the men in here, Alan.
Alan Ware 46:52
That's important and impressive work that needs to be done to change men's attitudes, boy's attitudes, very early. So what is the state of comprehensive sex education in schools in Uganda? And are there any active programs that are promoting healthy behaviors in reducing rates of unintended pregnancy?
Andrew Kyamagero 47:11
Thank you so much, Alan. Now comprehensive sex education is limited in Uganda and not widely available in schools. So Uganda has a high rate of teenage pregnancy, with approximately 25% of our girls aged between fifteen and nineteen having already given birth or being pregnant with their first child. Now that's according to the Uganda Bureau of Statistics. However, the government has made some efforts to promote healthy behaviors and reduce on the rates of unintended pregnancies. In 2019, the Ugandan government launched a new sexuality education curriculum for schools. Now this includes information on sexual reproductive health, HIV prevention, and gender based violence. The curriculum also focuses on life skills and values, education with the aim of promoting healthy behaviors, and positive attitudes towards sexuality and relationships. So there are also a number of organizations and programs in the country. For example, we have this Straight Talk Foundation in Uganda that provides information and education on sex and reproductive health to the young people through magazines, radio shows, and other media. Then we have Marie Stopes Uganda that provides a range of services including family planning, safe abortion, and post-abortion care, but the organization runs quite a lot of community-based programs that provide education and counseling on sexual and reproductive health. So despite of all these efforts, cultural and social norms around sexuality and gender make it difficult to discuss these issues openly. You cannot tell your daughter that this is where a penis goes, you cannot openly tell your brother that I have my menses and it means I can actually have a baby. So there is also a lack of resources and funding for comprehensive sex education programs and reproductive health services. There is a growing recognition of the importance of promoting healthy behaviors and reducing the rates of unintended pregnancies and efforts that are being made to address the challenge. But again, the conversations - we're trying as much as we can to see that they are age sensitive, cluster sensitive and appropriate, but above all, they take it to the real entire cause, or to the core cause of the conversation - no babies without decision, no baby by chance, but have your children by choice.
Nandita Bajaj 49:36
And Andrew, what do you think are the most effective family planning strategies? In addition to obviously a comprehensive sexual education program for adolescents, how about for increasing access to contraception and other reproductive health care services?
Andrew Kyamagero 49:52
The most effective family planning strategies for increasing access to contraception, I would call it the community-based distribution of contraceptive. This includes quite a lot of training of community health workers, and of late the government is trying to, benchmarking on Ethiopia because Ethiopia seems to actually help them understand more on how to deal with communities. So the community best distribution of contraceptives, using health workers and village health members to provide contraceptives and reproductive health services to people in their local community. This model, I strongly believe, that can be more effective in increasing access to contraceptives in rural areas where health facilities are often scarce. There is one person in charge of the welfare of the citizens, this person becomes our entry point in that village. And she liaises with someone at the parish level, the person at the parish level liaises with someone at the sub-county level, and then you're in position to trickle down these contraceptives down to people. Then to social marketing, this includes and involves using marketing techniques that promote the use of contraceptives. We have a lot of mass media whereby you come on TV or radios. There is something we used to have in our country here where we had a man carrying a family more like a platform, but the one with only two children and a wife, he was not was not feeling the load. And the one with a heavy number of children, you'd see him straining, like I can't hold it anymore. Now, that kind of media advertisement, it meant a lot. But again, it was patriarchy in my own school of thought, because it shows that it's a man who carries the entire load of the home. Yet we're preaching companionship, how about we have a man and a woman carrying the entire platform and these kids are so heavy for them that they cannot hold them and possibly she's pregnant again, maybe that would send the message even more deep. So when we use these social marketing tools, a mass media distribution of free samples, and subsidizing the price of the products or family planning, this strategy of social marketing can be successful in increasing awareness of contraceptives and promoting their use among the population. The third one is improving the access to information and education. Now, this involves providing comprehensive sex education, materials in schools and community settings, as well as increasing the awareness of the importance of family planning and reproductive health through public awareness campaigns and community outreach programs as and when we go to the churches, when we go to the hospitals, there is something called the youth-friendly services. So previously, our youth would go to a health center and would find only old people. Now she would get scared to ask for whatever products she wants to ask for. So the Minister of Health came up with what we call youth-friendly services or corners. Now here in these corners, we have peers who have been well trained and given the data and the material that is needed to make this conversation easy so that when a youth or teenager walks into a health center, they don't feel stigmatized. They don't feel judged, marginalized, or profiled. But this person will say, "Oh, you need a good morning after pill, please do you know how to use it?" "No, I don't know." "Okay, this is how you use it. In case you have problems, give me a call, don't give the hospital call, give me a call so we are friends." That is in a way that has actually been created just to make sure that these conversations go down. Then I strongly believe that we need an integration of family planning services in the entire Ministry of Health strategic flow over community health services, that while we are talking about the diseases like diabetes, pressure, Ebola, COVID, malaria, whatever it is, and HIV and AIDS, can we integrate family planning as one of a must nugget, everyone must get as and when they shop at the health center. It will be much more easier to onboard health service providers to understand what is the risk, how urgent is needed for this conversation that equally then they can retool, retrain, and re-equip themselves with urgent and dynamic tools that meet the demographic that has that need.
Nandita Bajaj 54:23
Some of the examples that you are giving about comprehensive family planning support being available across all health facilities, not not separating reproductive health from health, but also these youth-friendly services. Yeah, those are really incredible examples in it, like you say a young person having to go and interact with an older person to get a morning after pill will create that discomfort. It's intimidating to ask and to be judged and I can see what a role that would play in shifting cultural norms is actually having youth empowering other youth.
Andrew Kyamagero 55:04
That is so true. But again, Nandita, even that happening, we still have stigma when it gets to reproductive health products. And here in Africa, it explains why we are embracing so much of self-care products of reproductive health. First of all, access. Many women in Africa face significant barriers in accessing reproductive health products and services such as lack of transport, stigma, high cost. Now, self-care products, such as over the counter contraceptives and menstrual hygiene products can easily be accessed and used without the need for healthcare provider. Traditional healthcare models in Africa can be time consuming, and it requires significant travel and waiting times. Now, these self-care products have allowed the women to manage their reproductive health on their very own schedule without having to navigate complex health systems. But again, it's about privacy because a healthcare provider will know your husband, a healthcare provider will know your daughter. So chances are, you're going to know about what your wife is using before you even reach home. So the innovations of self-care products have allowed women to manage their reproductive health in the privacy of their homes. So overall, this shift is part of a larger movement towards empowering women and increasing access to reproductive health products and services, giving women the tools and resources they need to make informed decisions about their bodies, to see that they can improve their health, wellbeing, and overall the quality of life.
Alan Ware 56:36
So as a journalist, you've been covering a lot of sensitive issues all over Uganda for eighteen years or more. And as we talked about pronatalism and gender inequality and all of the sensitivity around population-related issues regarding religion and culture and environmental destruction. So what would you see, what have been some of the biggest challenges that you've had to navigate as a journalist covering these issues?
Andrew Kyamagero 57:02
So one of the biggest challenges covering these issues is gaining access to accurate and reliable information. Governments and other organizations may not always be forthcoming with data, and investigative reporting can be difficult in areas where access is restricted, or where journalists face censorship and repression. I have actually had that, it's not an easy one. And then to the sensitivity, covering sensitive topics such as pronatalism and gender inequality can be challenging. They often touch a deeply ingrained culture, beliefs, and practices. So journalists like me who are sensitive to these issues, we must remain objective and truthful in reporting, but at the same time, balancing the culture and the religious, you know, lens there. Then the complexities. These issues are often complex and multifaceted. They require one to have a very deep understanding of the social, cultural, and economic, as well as environmental factors that are playing, it can be challenging to distill this information into a compelling and accessible story that resonates with the readers, the viewers, or the listeners. Then the other challenge will be balancing the interests reporting on population-related issues and environment destruction in Africa, can also, you know, involve balancing the interests of various stakeholders, including government officials, businesses, environmentalists, and the affected communities. So you need to be able to navigate these complex relationships and provide a balanced and unbiased reporting and personal safety. I have been personally in a safe house, in safe houses for more than seventeen times since I started to practice what I do. So covering these issues can put one's life at risk, particularly in areas where political instability, conflict, and violence are very prevalent. And that's where I am. So for me, it has been very important for me to take precautions to ensure that my safety and the safety of my teams, when I'm in the field, that is very paramount. It's not easy, because at times we'll be looked at as an imperialists, kind of someone who's opposing the establishment of the power at large. So that's how it goes. But despite of all these challenges, I'll be very honest with you friends, it's critical that journalists continue to report on these important issues as they have a significant impact on the lives of people, not only in Uganda, but Africa and the world at large. So for me, I believe that by shining a light on these issues and holding those in power accountable, I can help to drive a positive change and improve the lives of millions of people within my community and across the entire continent.
Alan Ware 59:33
That takes a lot of bravery and courage.
Andrew Kyamagero 59:35
It's crazy. Believe you me, my wife hates my job. Every time she calls and says, "When you're setting off from work, drop me a track. I need to see where you are. I need to see that you're coming home."
Alan Ware 59:49
Wow. Well, thank you for that. And what changes have you seen as a result of some of your reporting that you've done in communities or policies that have changed?
Andrew Kyamagero 59:58
There are quite a couple of them them. One of the most crucial one is that I've been in position to onboard legislators or policymakers to start to think the way I think. I have been in position to influence thoughts of young men between the last five years and now I have been in over twenty-seven Senior Secondary Schools. And this has impacted over 20,000 students. Then I've equally been on ground and have impacted over 250,000 people in the different communities we have gone to, and I've seen a shift in terms of mindset, we have seen a shift in behavior, we have seen a shift in approaches to life, that it's not entirely about what you think or what you see, it's how you actually act. Through my reporting, I've raised awareness and mobilize public opinion putting pressure on policymakers, and other decision makers to take action on corruption and human rights abuses. Currently, we have a scandal of mabati, where the Prime Minister, the Vice President, the Minister of State, and the Minister of that particular region, they took iron sheets that were meant to be for a particular region, and they took it for themselves, they have been taken in prison in there. And if you remember very well, that even in South Africa, the reporting of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it helped to expose the atrocities of apartheid that paved the way for reconciliation and healing. And in the recent years, comrades, journalism has played a very important role in raising awareness about issues such as climate change, inequality, and social justice. Now, while the impact of journalism may not always be immediate or visible, the power of press to effect change should not be underestimated. So I strongly believe that by continuing to produce high quality reporting that is fair, accurate, unbiased, we can help to shape a better future for us all as citizens of the world, as citizens of the country, citizens of the continent.
Nandita Bajaj 1:01:51
Wow.
Alan Ware 1:01:52
Here here.
Nandita Bajaj 1:01:53
That's seems like a very, very nice place, Andrew, to end the conversation and to say to you just how enlightening this entire conversation has been; to gain these new insights from you about the courageous work that you are doing in bringing about, you know, high quality factual information to your communities through your investigative journalism work, especially given how dangerous this work can prove for your own wellbeing, but also sharing these very culture-specific values and practices and barriers to family planning to gender equality to the development of the entire nation in in Uganda and beyond. This has been an absolutely fascinating conversation and you are an absolutely fascinating person. Such impressive work, Andrew. What an honor it is to talk to you today.
Andrew Kyamagero 1:02:51
I'm very humbled to be a part of this. Thank you so much, Alan. Thank you so much, Nandita. And thanks to you, the listener of this podcast.
Alan Ware 1:03:00
That's it for this edition of the overpopulation podcast visit population balanced.org. To learn more to share feedback or guest recommendations write to us using the contact form on our site or by emailing us at podcast at population balanced.org. If you feel inspired by our work, please consider supporting us using the donate button also to help expand our listenership. Please consider rating us on whichever podcast platform you use.
Nandita Bajaj 1:03:27
Until next time, I'm not at the judge thanking you for your interest in our work and for your efforts and helping us all shrink toward abundance.
